Unban Request - Frost

[Grape]

~This unban request is posted on Frost's behalf. In no way am I involved in this situation whatsoever.~

Your name: Frost

Your SteamID:  STEAM_0:1:94839170

Your ban ID: 79578

Banned by: [FL:T] Random

Reason: Hostaging in public//Should know far better. - Extended by Joe Joe

Involved: Myself, Fudge, Julern and the police we put under FearRP.

Why we should unban you:

Let me begin by giving some backstory to the raid and said 'rule break'. Fudge, Jurlern and I were rebels about to raid the Nexus because the Dictator banned our group. We ran from our base that was at Northview Apartments at the time, to Nexus and began the raid at Nexus Front where we ran into Nexus from there and killed a few police officers. After a couple minutes, Julern and I decided to fall back to heal and change into my gas mask which took a maximum of one minute. This is when we forgot Fudge at Nexus.

Secondly, my character, Fayl Arpe, had no knowledge that a friend of mine called Mike Hawk (Fudge) had died in the raid; something that I only found out later. Since we left him behind for a mere minute to heal, we decided to go back to save him. You have to remember, the raid was still continuing, even during our healing period since shots were still being fired. So we decided to return to save our in-character friend (Fudge) once we had healed up. 

We then returned to nexus after our still conflicting break, to find and save our friend that we unfortunately forgot in Nexus. After we saw and unarmed officer, and FearRP still applies in raids, we decided to put him under FearRP to save our friends the easier and less harmful way since violence should always be the last option. However, this is not the case for the administrators involved in my ban. If I were to in fact, continue shooting, I doubt I would be banned at all about this situation. Which baffles me since, as I said, violence should always be the last option. It was the fact that I followed this very serious and often-enforced rule that unfortunately led to my ban. And I do not understand why this is. I could have killed everyone and saved my friend (Who was dead but I didn't know that in IC). In no way was there and rule infringement during this event.

        City RP Rule

        8.7 Using ropes is only for taking a player hostage.

This rule clearly states that the only use for the rope is to take a player hostage and not only did any of us not use a rope, but we did not take anyone hostage either. Even if you interpret the rules differently and said that we did 'hostage' the police officer, we still had a completely valid reason to do so and it does not matter whether the happening was in public or not, it was an on-going raid. Similar to how you're allowed to shoot and carry weapons in public if the raid has been taken into the public, it is the same for hostaging. But regardless, it was not a hostage and never will be since we never used a hostage rope. All we did was put an officer under gun point to resolve the matter peacefully and quickly. Something that the administrators should be encouraging.

I hope this unban request has enlightened you on the situation and you will find that there was not one rule infringement during the entire happening. I am a proud member of the community with over three-thousand five-hundred hours. And being on my last chance, I would never be so stupid to break any rule at all.

Thank you and have a nice day,
Frost.

[Fudge]

[Involved] I can back up the point on how they didn't know my character was dead, I had no communication with them before my death we got split up by cops and my character was killed off, and neither Julern or Frost saw this, so for all they knew I was still in the raid, holding cops off, giving them reason to come back after their little healing break, and help me take out the rest of the cops, take out the dictator.

[Power_Pulka]

[Involved] Well you did take a hostage in that began it all and that was the vice dictator when you were in the nexus lobby.
The vice dictator being me (Lucifer "Pulka" Grant)
So at the beginning of the raid you did use hostage rope and did take a hostage. Just wanna keep it all to what happened

[Random]

~This unban request is posted on Frost's behalf. In no way am I involved in this situation whatsoever.~

Your name: Frost

Your SteamID:  STEAM_0:1:94839170

Your ban ID: 79578

Banned by: [FL:T] Random

Reason: Hostaging in public//Should know far better. - Extended by Joe Joe

Involved: Myself, Fudge, Julern and the police we put under FearRP.

Why we should unban you:

Let me begin by giving some backstory to the raid and said 'rule break'. Fudge, Jurlern and I were rebels about to raid the Nexus because the Dictator banned our group. We ran from our base that was at Northview Apartments at the time, to Nexus and began the raid at Nexus Front where we ran into Nexus from there and killed a few police officers. After a couple minutes, Julern and I decided to fall back to heal and change into my gas mask which took a maximum of one minute. This is when we forgot Fudge at Nexus.

Secondly, my character, Fayl Arpe, had no knowledge that a friend of mine called Mike Hawk (Fudge) had died in the raid; something that I only found out later. Since we left him behind for a mere minute to heal, we decided to go back to save him. You have to remember, the raid was still continuing, even during our healing period since shots were still being fired. So we decided to return to save our in-character friend (Fudge) once we had healed up. 

You did not leave him behind for a ''mere minute'' you ran all the way back towards the apartment area (Not all the way over there, but if I remember correctly you were heading in that direction..) Furthermore, there were no shots fired when you returned. I was personally involved in the raid, and had just died previous to you hostaging the two police officers. I then saw you hostaging the cops, infront of a crowd of people. What you could've done is pm Fudge, if then there was no response, you could have gone and rescued him.

And like I told you on steam, you could have waited for both of the officers to go away before proceeding with the raid. But it is what it is.

We then returned to nexus after our still conflicting break, to find and save our friend that we unfortunately forgot in Nexus. After we saw and unarmed officer, and FearRP still applies in raids, we decided to put him under FearRP to save our friends the easier and less harmful way since violence should always be the last option. However, this is not the case for the administrators involved in my ban. If I were to in fact, continue shooting, I doubt I would be banned at all about this situation. Which baffles me since, as I said, violence should always be the last option. It was the fact that I followed this very serious and often-enforced rule that unfortunately led to my ban. And I do not understand why this is. I could have killed everyone and saved my friend (Who was dead but I didn't know that in IC). In no way was there and rule infringement during this event.

        City RP Rule

        8.7 Using ropes is only for taking a player hostage.

If you would have shot the cops right then and there, I can assure you I would have punished you for that aswell.

This rule clearly states that the only use for the rope is to take a player hostage and not only did any of us not use a rope, but we did not take anyone hostage either. Even if you interpret the rules differently and said that we did 'hostage' the police officer, we still had a completely valid reason to do so and it does not matter whether the happening was in public or not, it was an on-going raid. Similar to how you're allowed to shoot and carry weapons in public if the raid has been taken into the public, it is the same for hostaging. But regardless, it was not a hostage and never will be since we never used a hostage rope. All we did was put an officer under gun point to resolve the matter peacefully and quickly. Something that the administrators should be encouraging.

A hostage rope should only be used on hostages, correct. But it does not have to be used on a hostage. You can hostage someone without using a rope to tie them up.

I hope this unban request has enlightened you on the situation and you will find that there was not one rule infringement during the entire happening. I am a proud member of the community with over three-thousand five-hundred hours. And being on my last chance, I would never be so stupid to break any rule at all.

Thank you and have a nice day,
Frost.

Marked my replies in bold.

[User 19014]

You did not leave him behind for a ''mere minute'' you ran all the way back towards the apartment area (Not all the way over there, but if I remember correctly you were heading in that direction..) Furthermore, there were no shots fired when you returned. I was personally involved in the raid, and had just died previous to you hostaging the two police officers. I then saw you hostaging the cops, infront of a crowd of people. What you could've done is pm Fudge, if then there was no response, you could have gone and rescued him.

I know Fudge, if he needs help in a gunfight he will ask through radio or voiceradio, and since we had no idea where he was, we had only 2 options, he was alive but fighting off cops, or he was dead and I know you could say "Oh he might've escaped for all you knew" I know how Fudge plays, he would have said in radio something like "Where are you guys" if he escaped, and this was all considered when it happened. 

And like I told you on steam, you could have waited for both of the officers to go away before proceeding with the raid. But it is what it is.

We saw no reason to let the 2 officers get away, we figured we should get them under gunpoint (Not a hostage) so that they would not shoot us if we had their men under gunpoint for it to be considered a "hostage situation" we would have had to demand something from the cops, if we let them go they could have just as easily came from behind and ambushed us, (Like they did before when we were actually with Fudge).

A hostage rope should only be used on hostages, correct. But it does not have to be used on a hostage. You can hostage someone without using a rope to tie them up.

It wasn't a hostage situation, having someone under gunpoint and having someone hostaged are 2 different situations and since it was an active raid, we didn't have to keep low, like I stated before I would have had to demand something for it to be considered a "hostage situation".

[Fudge]

You did not leave him behind for a ''mere minute'' you ran all the way back towards the apartment area (Not all the way over there, but if I remember correctly you were heading in that direction..) Furthermore, there were no shots fired when you returned. I was personally involved in the raid, and had just died previous to you hostaging the two police officers. I then saw you hostaging the cops, infront of a crowd of people. What you could've done is pm Fudge, if then there was no response, you could have gone and rescued him.

I know Fudge, if he needs help in a gunfight he will ask through radio or voiceradio, and since we had no idea where he was, we had only 2 options, he was alive but fighting off cops, or he was dead and I know you could say "Oh he might've escaped for all you knew" I know how Fudge plays, he would have said in radio something like "Where are you guys" if he escaped, and this was all considered when it happened. 

I can back Frost up on this, if I get stranded by myself in a raid I would ask where my teammates were, and Frost does know my play style I have been doing Criminal Duo's A LOT with him recently, and I have known him for quite a long time now.

[Joe Joe]

Hi there Frost,

So I spoke to both Random and Forgee while they were dealing with you to which I was informed you did not just run off to 'heal up' but actually hung around the apartments for a few minutes before returning to raid the Nexus again. During the time you left no shots were fired which is directly contradicting what you said earlier and clearly you attempting to lie to get out of the situation. Also from what I saw and what I was explained you hostaged someone infront of a large crowd of people.

Care to explain why you lied earlier? Because you did infact stay at apartments for a while and while you were there no shots were fired.

[Grape]

~This unban request is posted on Frost's behalf. In no way am I involved in this situation whatsoever.~

Joe, I did not lie in my original post other than stating that shots were fired during my retreat from Nexus. After conversing with people who were not involved during the raid yet were in the area at the time also stated that shots were not fired. This was a mistake on my part as I thought shots had been. However, this seems to not be the case so I apologize for writing falsely. I stand by my claim that my retreat from Nexus was less than a minute and a half. There is no way it was '5 minutes' as administrators have previously stated. It was a minute and a half at most. Tests have been made. All I did was leave Nexus, walk in and out of my apartment, get my Gas Mask, go round the corner and get changed. This does, in fact, take less than one and half minutes including stalls and pauses.

The most predominant point with this UBR is the fact that the dictator at the time did not die. He was not killed. Our mission did not end. We had to return. With the possibility of our IC friend trapped inside Nexus and the dictator was not dead, it would make no sense to not return to help Fudge and to kill the dictator since it was our original mission. In one and a half minutes, the raid is quite clearly not over, especially with Fudge needing help and the dictator not being dead. No rule breakage occurred during our retreat and our rush. The raid wasn't over. Our friend possibly needed help and the dictator that banned our group was not dead. We had to return. There are no rules in place that dictate how long you have to wait till you raid again. None. Not even in the explanations. Therefore, I could raid once again since our mission to kill the dictator failed, we were still banned and we left our friend behind in Nexus. Even if there were a time limit that makes us have to wait for to raid again, I cannot stress the fact that the raid was still on-going due to it being less than one and a half minutes since we left Nexus and my friend was possibly in danger. There is no reason for us to not have returned to Nexus.

Lastly, many Super Administrators, Administrators, Veterans and Teachers; including but not limited Awestruck, Jonas, DVN, Panda and JohnSilver have done the exact things we have done during the raid. It has never been in the past against the rules to hostage officers during a Nexus raid: inside in private, or outside at Nexus Front. It is not against the rules to hostage officers during a Nexus raid and it never has been. This is exactly what everyone named above has done and will do when they raid the Nexus. It is easier to hostage all the officers and take care of the dictator without distractions without breaking any rule. It was been done many times in the past and will continue to happen. This is because violence should always be the last option. Something that the administrators should be promoting. Even somehow it was against the rules, at the end of the day, none of the officers were hostaged. Simply put under FearRP.

Thank you and have a nice night,
Frost.

[Joe Joe]

Hi Frost,

Thanks for your response. What I first fail to see here is the fact that after speaking to the Administrators involved it was longer than 1 minute you were away. And the fact is you are unable to leave a building and then return again to attack. If people are able to do this it gives them an unfair advantage seeing as you can keep returning and attacking as long as you please as long as the President is still alive which isnt the case. If you fail which you did you should wait a specific time before attacking the same place again.

The main issue here however isn't to do with that its with the hostages. You left and once left it was seen as the raid had ended. So obviously the Police force stood down. Then a few minutes later you return and take someone hostage in a crowd of people which is quite clearly public. Care to explain how you thought it was successful when you and the Police force no longer had conflict within the Nexus for you to storm it again and the take hostages in front of a large crowd of people when no raid was taking place.

[Grape]

~This unban request is posted on Frost's behalf. In no way am I involved in this situation whatsoever.~

So, me putting someone under gunpoint whilst a raid is still ongoing, baring in mind the dictator is not dead and killing him was our mission, is hostaging? At this point from when I got banned, I took a police officer hostage. Now many thoughts were processing through my head, "Is Fudge dead?", "Where is the president?" But my main issue was finding Fudge. I was hoping to put the officer under gunpoint so I could question him but before I did, I get held up saying I'm getting banned. I've spoken to many people that are very familiar with the aggressive rules (including staff or below) and they've all said that the raid is still ongoing even though I left to go heal, the raid is still on. My mission was to kill the dictator that banned my group and I didn't complete my mission. So I'm going to use an officer to find the location of the president and to probably take him in so I don't get flanked. My intentions weren't to take an officer hostage, it was simply to get answers.

Thank you and have a nice evening,
Frost.