Unban request for [FL:RP] Mike

[Mike]

Your name: [FL:RP] Mike


Your SteamID: STEAM_0:1:16671491



Your ban ID: 69011



Banned by: [FL] Hitman



Reason: Promoting breaking of rule 12.7, breaking FearRP by allowing himself to be shot at behind a riot shield // Was on last chance




Involved: [FL:RP] Random Gamer, [FL:RP] Ukraine, AwestruckBullet, Lt. Blackcoat 


Why we should unban you:


As part of my teams SRU training, we were testing the officers ability to handle the equipment as well as realisitc training for a situation that requires it. At no point did we intend to cause lethal harm to any officer involved in the breach equipment training. We had an officer standing safely to the side to oversee the session and determine if it needed to stop at any point and apply ballistic first-aid if required. 

- SRU were heavily armoured with bullet-proof clothing and also a bullet proof-shield before commencing
- Safety advisor was standing to the side

I would also like to point out that the training was to test the effectiveness of breach equipment whilst interlinked in a roman-like formation vs bullet spray and also concussion effects, so we know exactly how to handle situations when they arise and can prepare for what's coming, this is much like every police officer being sprayed with CS Gas (UK) and Pepper Spray (US) during training to test the effects and understand what it would be like in a genuine situation.

You may say that the spray is non-lethal and cannot be compared to live ammunition however this is why the officers were equipt with ballistic armour and helmets to ensure bullet penetration is non-lethal. 

We also expected the riot shields would be completely ballistic considering they are used by armed civil-servants that deal with situations constantly involving both light and heavy weaponry.

I would like to point out that rule 12.7 should be enforced on those who intentionally break it, for example having an argument with another cop and one fires upon the other, this would be a clear intentional breach of the friendly-fire rule. However we did not expect friendly fire to occur for the above reason and therefore had no intention of supposidly breaking 12.7 and I think the staff should have realised this, understood our purpose and RP reason and maybe warned us that shields do allow bullet penetration, I also believe a blacklist would have been sufficient as the staff dealing with this knew our intentions were not bad. 


I believe that following a 'last warning' a perm ban for breaking 12.7 is trivial as I am not an intentional rule-breaker and have constantly shown within the Fearless community that I am an exerienced roleplay and set up many role-play events with my clan to enhance server entertainment. 

I have shown on many occasions I am a capable player and I think removing me from the community for a supposed rule-break seen here is quite unnessersary given how much I offer the community in return. 

I had a discussion with staff after my 'last warning' was issued and they told me that in order for the perm banned to be implemented it would require another major rule-break such as a DDoS threat or threatening a staff member, etc, and normal punishment would apply for rulebreaks such as CDM, RDM etc.. 

I would like to question how 12.7 being a friendly fire rule, is seen as a much higher rulebreak than that of killing someone such as RDM or CDM that I was told I would not receive a perm for. 

Please see the video below showing us training in a horizontal and solo formation with standard issue bullets and also a concussion grenade. 

Thank you for your time,
Mike

[Greed^]

User has been warned for this post. Reason:

Not involved. Warned.

[Random]

--INVOLVED/ALSO BANNED--

We tested the effectiveness of two riot shields interlinked against bullet spray and concussion to see how effective breaching an area of a certain size would be.

And also, this video is nothing compared to what we did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icPBH64oOuA (Check especially 3:43)
)

[Hitman]

Pending investigation.

Hitman
Fearless Administrator

[Awestruck]

You may also refer to this video of a man being shot multiple times with a Kalashnikov in a training exercise to test the Kevlar vest he was wearing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x59iN4KMz4

As you can see, they man is shot at point-blank range with an AK-47. In our scenario, we had both kevlar uniform and riot shields to protect us. This type of training does happen in real life as shown.

[Mike]

You may also refer to this video of a man being shot multiple times with a Kalashnikov in a training exercise to test the Kevlar vest he was wearing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x59iN4KMz4

As you can see, they man is shot at point-blank range with an AK-47. In our scenario, we had both kevlar uniform and riot shields to protect us. This type of training does happen in real life as shown.

I'd like to add that MasterNoda said 'this training does not happen in real life'

[Mike]

Please see from 4:40 onwards.




IMPORTANT INFORMATION TO VOID CASE


Please see below my ban history, and my explanation under it



69011
[FL:RP] Mike
STEAM_0:1:16671491
[Image: steam.png]
Promoting breaking of rule 12.7, breaking FearRP by allowing himself to be shot at behind a riot shield // Was on last chance
Never
[FL] Hitman



67894
[FL:RP] Mike
STEAM_0:1:16671491
[Image: steam.png]
Backseat administration, UBR approved // Last Chance.
Expired
[FL] NightHawkd



66911
[FL:RP] Mike
STEAM_0:1:16671491
[Image: steam.png]
(ban lifted before expired) Joking to DDoS a staff member
Expired
Suarez



66292
[FL:RP] Mike
STEAM_0:1:16671491
[Image: steam.png]
Disconnecting to avoid RP situation
Expired
[FL] NightHawkd



65825
[FL:RP] Mike
STEAM_0:1:16671491
[Image: steam.png]
Killing a handcuffed man for no reason
Expired
[FL] NightHawkd




As you can see, my ban for 'joking to DDoS' I received a final warning for from staff when I was unbanned, the 'final warning' was then REMOVED by SoulRipper following on from a moderator also joking to DDoS.

My next ban for 'backseat admin' then put me on a final warning and I had only had 3 bans prior to that which does not warrant a final warning. 

Therefore the perm ban should not be valid because the final warning was completely unjustified and invalid.

I would like some opinions on this. 

[Avgar]

Hello Mike,

After reviewing and analyzing the unban request opening post as well as the later post the following is the reply:

As part of my teams SRU training, we were testing the officers ability to handle the equipment as well as realistic training for a situation that requires it. At no point did we intend to cause lethal harm to any officer involved in the breach equipment training. We had an officer standing safely to the side to oversee the session and determine if it needed to stop at any point and apply ballistic first-aid if required.
- SRU were heavily armoured with bullet-proof clothing and also a bulletproof shield before commencing
- Safety advisor was standing to the side

    While similar ballistics testing is indeed conducted in real life, the second any injury should incur the testing would cease immediately. In the video, the person to your right can be heard calling out their HP, proving that they are taking damage, as well as you taking damage down to 9 HP. It was at that moment, the second either of you stated you were losing health, the testing should have stopped. By continuing after injury incurs, it becomes a 12.7 violation (friendly fire).

As their sergeant, you are responsible for your mens’ lives in the field. By allowing them to continue injuring each other, you are promoting 12.7 (friendly fire) to be violated.

I would like to point out that rule 12.7 should be enforced on those who intentionally break it, for example having an argument with another cop and one fires upon the other,

Rule 12.7, just like any other rule, is enforced whether or not it was broken accidentally or intentionally

However we did not expect friendly fire to occur for the above reason and therefore had no intention of supposedly breaking 12.7 and I think the staff should have realised this, understood our purpose and RP reason and maybe warned us that shields do allow bullet penetration, I also believe a blacklist would have been sufficient as the staff dealing with this knew our intentions were not bad.

While you may not have expected friendly fire to occur, it did. Once that happened the SRU team kept on firing at you. Near the end of the video you can be seen applying a medkit to heal your wounds, as well, which proves you were fully aware of your health. Instead of asking, you chose to conduct the experiment yourself without consulting staff.

I had a discussion with staff after my 'last warning' was issued and they told me that in order for the perm banned to be implemented it would require another major rule-break such as a DDoS threat or threatening a staff member, etc, and normal punishment would apply for rulebreakers such as CDM, RDM etc..

We do not recall the staff team ever stating that a normal punishment would apply for minor rule breaks as last chance means last chance. Please provide chat logs of this occurring. If you wish for them to remain private, you may forum PM it to either of us directly.

As you can see, my ban for 'joking to DDoS' I received a final warning for from staff when I was unbanned, the 'final warning' was then REMOVED by SoulRipper following on from a moderator also joking to DDoS.

The ban was lifted due to the joking amongst each other within the staff team, however the last chance was removed by SoulRipper due to a miscommunication within the staff team. He was not aware that you agreed to the terms of being put on last chance during the Teamspeak discussion about the incident regarding DDoSing the staff member as opposed to receiving a permanent ban.

My next ban for 'backseat admin' then put me on a final warning and I had only had 3 bans prior to that which does not warrant a final warning.

Therefore the perm ban should not be valid because the final warning was completely unjustified and invalid.

The last chance being re-applied was the result of the staff team present during the meeting discussing bans 67894 and 66911 and wondering how the last chance disappeared initially. It then became clear that as mentioned above, it was removed due to a miscommunication within the staff team, and all present for the meeting agreed it should be reinstated, SoulRipper included; hence why the admin reason on ban 67894 states “Decided on by the Staff Team”.


Avgar                                                              
Fearless Administrator & Developer

Hitman
Fearless Administrator  

[Mike]

Thanks for your time Avgar, I will be writing an in-depth response to your post tomorrow as now is not convenient.

Let me also add that the majority of people I have spoken to, along with myself, have great respect for you as a person and Fearless administrator and believe you will be the answer to many problems.

Good night.

[SoulRipper]

I would also like to write my objective opinion on this matter.

The main question of this case is: Was this friendly fire or not?

They have been roleplaying as SRU and are doing a training by shooting on riotshields. CityRP does not have any non-lethal training guns and so they have been limited to real weapons. The riotshield is bugged, it is taking damage while it shouldn't. They were roleplaying a training so I don't think this is blatant friendly fire. I do think the roleplay background could have been taken more care of, for example by making a training range. Not just in the Nexus Garage.

According to some YouTube videos posted in this thread, this is something that has been done in real life as well. That way we can't say that this is very unrealistic.

Facts about the case:
- This was a roleplay training, not blatantly shooting eachother.
- The riotshield is bugged, hence why damage has been taken.
- There is no alternative to use regarding weapons.
- It wasn't exactly unrealistic.
- The location and scenery of the RP has not been taken care of.

I think those involved can only be blamed for the fact that there was no proper training range and that the roleplay was most likely lacking a background story. This is a minor rulebreak and a blacklist from SRU should have been the highest possible punishment for this. A permanent ban is unjustified in my opinion, the short bans for the other players involved should be undone.


The player, Mike, was on his last chance. A last chance does not mean that every minor incident (which this case is an example of), will get you permanently banned. A last chance means: If you are blatantly breaking a major rule again, you will get perm'd. I'm personally against last chances. I don't understand why some people can be banned 13 times and some only 5, but that is another discussion. He should at least have received the same punishment as the players that also participated in the roleplay.

Suggestions for the roleplay:
- Use a baseball bat instead of a gun, as we don't have non-lethal weapons and the riot shield is not working properly.
- Build a training centre.


To summarize: I think the permanent ban is unjustified and is not based on proper reasons. I do understand that the team decided to ban him, I'm not trying to undermine their judgement, although after viewing the YouTube video, I think a ban was not the correct punishment. I would like to see the bans being removed from record and a warning being given not to roleplay a training anymore without a proper background/scenery. I do not share any interest with Mike or the admin team, so my view is purely objective.


Sources used: youtube.com/watch?v=O4wWPNx1KZw, youtube.com/watch?v=SuBTxAe2fvU, http://armatraining.com/files/2014/06/Ar...iption.pdf, youtube.com/watch?v=dri0icqBg_s (start 4:40)