Ukraine's Unblacklist request from weapons

[Ukraine]

Your name: Ukraine

Your blacklist ID: 66839

Steam ID: STEAM_0:0:2596995

Reason: Shooting at vehicle for no valid reason


Staff member who blacklisted you: Suarez

Reason why you should be unblacklisted: I had no choice to shoot as FearRP was broken, I was a cop and was in pursuit of a suspect, We had him cornered and I jumped out of my cruiser and proceeded to go up to his window with my sidearm drawn saying " Get out of the vehicle! " He then starts to speed off and I open fire as he is speeding throughout the city causing a threat to the pedestrians. Suarez then proceeds to pick me up as soon as I fire, He witnesses the guy running off after having a gun at his head through the car window, saying I have no valid to shoot. I've spoken to many moderators and admins and they all agreed that this was a valid reason to shoot.

[Suarez]

The staff you spoke to decisions are irrelevant because they were not their and the situation is different everytime.

The user did break FearRP and was banned for doing so. Nobody was at danger enough for you to shoot and you should have continued the pursuit. You do not shoot because they broke FearRP that is backseat administration.

[Ukraine]

How was nobody at danger when he was driving recklessly throughout the city for quite sometime? It's not backstreet administration when you are attempting to save lives as he broke our car barricade to stop him and sped off which in turn could have ran someone over easily. This is the first time i've ever seen anyone punished for shooting at an assailants car

[Suarez]

The rules are clear there was no-one around the vehicle to be injured (pedestrian wise) so no need to shoot him.

[Ukraine]

Because the vehicle was surrounded by police cruisers that were attempting to stop him but he broke out and took off down main street where there was pedestrians.....

No one has ever been in trouble for this before. Your vendetta against us is childish enough to where you punish us for stuff that isn't against the rules.

[Suarez]

Tha fact you keep pulling the "vendetta" card is humourous. I didn't even know who you were when picking you up because you were far enough away for me to see your name. I don't have a vendetta against you so stop thinking that way.

Shooting a vehicle without a valid reason is against the rules. You had no reason and I blacklisted you.

[Avgar]

I'd like to offer my opinion on this blacklist.

"The rules are clear there was no-one around the vehicle to be injured (pedestrian wise) so no need to shoot him." - Suarez
How near must people be around the vehicle for it to be valid to shoot at it? In my opinion, if there were pedestrians nearby it would actually make less sense to shoot at the vehicle as they could be injured by the bullets. In real life a reckless driver usually gets their car shot at when no one is close by enough to get injured by direct fire or ricochet. Even if the driver may not have caused IMMEDIATE danger to anyone, they were still a danger to the citizens of the city as, based on what Ukraine has said, they were driving recklessly. Breaking through a barricade is reason enough for the driving to be considered reckless.

In my opinion, a good way to judge whether a blacklist or ban was valid is by checking for precedents. I have come into contact with at least two similar situations in player report form where no punishment has been handed out (in-game, a lot more, but the player report ones have actual video evidence).

See below:

1. The following player report was denied (because reason for shooting at the car was unclear)
   http://www.fearlessrp.net/showthread.php?tid=59093
   
2. The following player report was approved. Even though I shot at the vehicle with no one nearby I was not sanctioned with a blacklist from weapons (as the accused here was driving recklessly and it was a sufficient reason to shoot at their car)
   http://www.fearlessrp.net/showthread.php?tid=65545
   

The second one is most similar to Ukraine's case.
The accused:

1. Drove recklessly;
   
2. Was confronted by the police and told to stop;
   
3. Drove off even after being warned to stop;
   
4. Was shot at by the police. Shot at NOT for breaking FearRP, but for endangering lives of citizens.
   

"I didn't even know who you were when picking you up because you were far enough away for me to see your name." - Suarez
Since you were far enough not to see their name could you have been far away not to see the big picture and reason as to why Ukraine was shooting at the car?

It all comes down to this: did Suarez have more evidence that the shooting was invalid or was it simply assumed that the shooting was invalid because the reason was not clear? If it's the latter then it is breaching presumption of innocence. 'Innocent until proven guilty'.

To summarize:
Someone drove recklessly, broke through barricades, causing not immediate danger, but danger nonetheless to the citizens of the city. Player was under FearRP and had to stop as he was being apprehended by the police. When the perpetrator did not stop and sped away Ukraine shot at it in attempts to stop the vehicle or disarm the perpetrator.

If any of the above is incorrect or requires adjustment I would like Ukraine - the blacklisted player, Suarez - the moderator that issued the blacklist or any of the staff team to offer comments on it.
If any staff disagrees with the points I made above I would like an example to be provided where shooting at a recklessly driven vehicle would be allowed.

[Suarez]

Since you were far enough not to see their name could you have been far away not to see the big picture and reason as to why Ukraine was shooting at the car?

I was still close enough, just I was a little too far away to see a name, but the whole picture was easily viewed as I was observing the chase for a while.

---

I can see how Avgar's views could be deemed as valid, but you were not there at the time and the situation was quite different. I would never punish anyone if I didn't have reason to believe that they actually broke the rules.

[Suarez]

Denied.

Notes: Stop being so nieve as to thinking that I have a hatred because I banned one of you. Trust me your not the centre of my mind. I have much more important things to think about and I really can't be bothered with vendettas.

[FL:M] Suarez
Fearless Moderator

[Avgar]

Posting this here for clarity sake:

After speaking with Suarez it has come to light that Ukraine was blacklisted from weapons for the following reason:
The vehicle was locked into place (by police cars) so there was no reason to shoot at it. If the vehicle successfully escaped the barricades THEN and ONLY then could they have started shooting at it.