UBL: Jokah

[Old Man Jokhah]

*Answered*

Your name: [FL:RP]Jokhah

Your blacklist ID: 56592

Steam ID: STEAM_0:1:14131954

Reason: RDM/FailRP - Killing someone on the street as a preformer for Smashing his Guitar

Staff member who blacklisted you: [FL] Obay

Reason why you should be unblacklisted:


Lets try this again.


I was a street performer, playing music with a dupe.  I had clearly listed in my description I had no sound.  I have been on the server through most of the day, and several crashes.  Throughout the day, I have been randomly assaulted so many times and the police have failed to do things about it.  After a while, I got fed up and equipped a weapon.  Insert server crash.


Rejoined server.  Started playing music off and on.  Description didn't change, still labeled clearly [No Sound].  The casino owner came out of his establishment after closing it.  I was playing music, he and two others came up.  Two of them were using mics, I chose to ignore the mic queue while playing the music because honestly I don't need to keep restating that I don't have sound in looc when it is tagged in my playercard (the info you get when you look at a person).  I assumed that it was the regular babble, I don't like it, I do like it, ect.


For reasons unknown, the casino owner pulls out a bat and starts smashing on my guitar, then typed a /me to the effect that the guitar had be smashed (destroyed presumably).  I got up from my chair, left the area.  I went into the bank to equip a weapon.  My personal choice would have been one of my p250s, or something else on the lower end of life.  Due to recent (24-48hour changes I'm assuming) changes, my ammo was all jacked up.  I ended up with a ton of 45 ammo with a slew of 9mm weapons.  The only weapon I could readily see that was useable was the AK74 or whatever number is attached.  I choose to equip that, as I live in a house with an AK47 so it's still a complete possibility to own one.  Illegal weapon, sure, but by default ALL weapons are illegal.  I wasn't about to go with a melee weapon, because of the many exploitable situations including backpeddling and pulling a gun before I can lock fear rp.


I ran back out of the back, straight up to the person, and demanded a new guitar.  At this point I had no intention of killing this dude.  Someone called the police.  The man said "the music store is over there", acknowledging that I was talking to him.  I told him that I wanted the money for a new guitar, that it was my fathers and that it cannot be replaced.  He chose to stand still, not type, and wait for police to arrive.  I was in first person and had no sound, so my situational awareness wasn't exactly up to scratch.  I saw two admin mics queue during my detaining of this man, Grub and Obay.  Now I'm in the middle of a fast evolving situation, I have mics I cannot hear, I didn't even want to have to equip a gun, honestly.


I saw one SWAT, I think it was the sergeant, but I kept my gun level on the man to protect myself from police.  I even yelled to the police, explaining that this man had attacked me, and that he was going to pay or die.  I also stated that when the situation was over, I was going to disarm and allow for an arrest.  Quite frankly, my character and I were sick of being bullied.  The man decided not to pay while I had him detained.  The police had over 1-2 minutes to decide what they wanted to do and knew my very clear intent to get my money or kill the man.  They chose not to attempt hostage rescue and to continue to yell over mics for the most part.


Since that man decided not to pay up, I killed him, and was shortly killed by the police.




Obay at this time snatched me up and took me to the roof.  He was polite enough not to freeze me, I appreciate that.  He asked why I killed the guy.  I explained he attacked me, I attacked him.  Should be open an shut.  He decided that I shouldn't have killed the guy and I shouldn't have used an AK.  That I should have called the police.  We tried to discuss this matter professionally, however I had an IRL situation that I had to take care of about half way through Obay trying to figure out how he wanted to proceed.  This led to me stressing out and possibly jumping the gun.  Towards the end, I was fed up with the back and forth, I explained that I needed to afk and that it was going to happen.  I explained why it had to happen.  So for that small piece of the conversation, I will apologize.  Anyone could try to say "well if you are busy IRL than..." but it's not a real point.  She woke up in a rush and had to leave for work.  I needed to go get the gate because I live in the country.  Moving on.


I made one very direct accusation during this conversation and I stand by it here.  That call was biased.  Not biased in the sense that the other person was Obay's friend.  I honestly do not know if they even know one another.  The point I am trying to make about bias is this right here.  I was attacked by a casino owner, without warning, and that was allowed.  My choice of weapon and killing him for attacking me, is not allowed.  To put this in simple text.  Passive attacks passive without warning and rps destroying property for no real reasoning = allowed.  Passive kills passive for attacking him = not allowed.


There is no rule about what weapons a civ can use.  There is no rule saying that I have to call the police.  If anything, I could have maybe called an admin, but since two admins were present it seemed that they were already at least partially aware of the situation.  Instead of making a huge deal about being attacked, I kept with the roleplay and retaliated.




His point seemed to be that it's unrealistic that a street performer would have an AK, kill someone else who knowingly destroyed his livelihood (that guitar was my employment/business asset), and that I should have called the police.


To answer one piece at a time.


Unrealistic to have an AK:  There is an AK in the house here.  It's owned by the small engine repair mechanic living here.  I'm unemployed and own several "high caliber" rifles.  I don't see how it's fail to say that a street performer (citizen) can't own a weapon that a small engine mechanic (real life citizen) owns.


Kill someone who knowingly destroyed property/business/livelihood:  In my experience, destroying someone's lively hood tends to lead to a few realistic possibilities.  Suicide, murder, 911, or even that rare person who lets it go.  Sure, some might be wrong, but they are all realistic possibilities.


Should have called the police: That is a personal opinion at best.  There is no rule stating that I am required to call the police.  I work on the street, sometimes in the slums (apartment area) and villas.  I'm pretty used to having to deal with the various scumbags of evocity.


I took a good look through the rules.  Here are all the ones I found that most relate to this specific situation.


2.1f Do not run into or loiter around extremely dangerous or life-threatening situations, such as a fire or raid, as a citizen or someone without the appropriate job.


-Area was crowded even when I noted the police arrived, two admins nearby.  If you are stressing out about fail rp, how about that right there.

2.5 Do not do unrealistic things out of context (FailRP). This includes things such as anti-gravity bathtubs, unrealistic car colours, watermelon fights, etc. when there is no specific roleplay in which they would make sense (i.e. game shows or science roleplays).



-General definition of Fail RP applied to general context.




4.1 Do not kill people randomly (RDM); only kill with a valid roleplay reason.

4.2 Do not shoot your gun or flare gun without a valid roleplay reason.



-The reason was clear, failure to comply with demands after several chances, with knowledge that death was the punishment for failure to comply.


8.1 Do not hostage players without a valid roleplay reason.

8.4 Once the hostage has submitted to and given you your demands, you must release him/her.
8.5 Once you have taken a hostage, you must look after them until they have submitted to your demands.



-Already established why I detained him, not really a hostage situation, but is all at the same time.  I had reason, I stated demands, I gave the person over three chances (with time between) to comply, he didn't.  I never stopped looking at my hostage so he was definately looked after.




9.6 You must roleplay your job accurately (i.e. do not pretend that you’re a special ops soldier as a citizen or chef).


-I was a street performer.  I stuck to that.  Equiping a gun doesn't make me not a street performer.  Street perfromers also don't have to be good people.  I'm not David Blaine doing a street magic trick, I'm lower income african-evocitian trying to get by in life.


16.1 Do not steal, rob, extort, etc. without a valid roleplay reason.
16.2 When demanding sums of money from robberies and muggings, demand realistic amounts ($500 maximum).





-Till the cops showed up it was basically a robbery.  Well, more like debt collection.




19.3 Do not mic-spam. If you want to play music through your microphone, have an appropriate building set up and make sure that the volume is not loud.





-I had a correct dupe, this was never in dispute, no complaints about volume either, just music selection by players.








That all being said, I not only request that it be approved, I request it be removed from my record.  I was attacked, I reacted appropriately.  Weather or not you like how I went about it, I'm failing to see any actual rule violations that I fall under.  Fail RP based on my job and weapon selection is flimsy considering I was attacked without warning and without justification.  As stated before, two admins were present and/or in the area of said event, so I fail to see why I should use @.  Finally, the admin clearly stated that I should have called the police and strongly believes that, so therefore it's obvious that what he did was considered acceptible so I can't be held for the far far stretch of backseat administration.  It was just a very fast, very aggressive situation.  Don't start nothing, won't be nothing kind of situation.  He started it, I ended it, in character.  I await your reply, I would like for you to have another admin take a look at the case to give you a third opinion on the situation before you jump right in to this one.  I'm not playing word games with you, I'm using the rules as intended.


What I am looking for from you in reply, is to please figure out where you have issues, find the rules they apply to, and state your questions, comments, concerns, so that we can get this over with in a clear fashion.  Or basically, if you tell me which parts you want to pick apart, we don't have to do the whole "quote whole long post for 1-2 sentence reply" game.






P.S. No I'm not saying I want another admin to handle this, I'm just saying get a third opinion for yourself before you jump in.  A suggestion only.


P.S.S.  When I say he attacked me, it was with a baseball bat, not his fist, a weapon.  Keep that noted when you see me say he attacked me.  We're not talking punchwhoring.

[Old Man Jokhah]

After taking a few hours to think about this, I'm gonna go ahead and add on some information about myself.  I'm doing this so you can get a feel for who I am and what I stand for.  Part of the problem when it comes to appealing to the staff is that most of the time, you don't know the person, just what you saw them do.  I'm doing this in a different post so that the time stamp can be noted.


First thing: I want it to be crystal clear, I have absolutely nothing against [FL] Obay.  I hear nothing but good things about him as an administrator.  This isn't me trying to make any form of statement about him or the way he performs his administrative tasks.  This is purely because I feel the judgement call was incorrect.


Second: It's pretty well known that I can be extremely aggressive.  This has been noted about my play style by both clans and staff.  I believe my general aggressive attitude was even taken into consideration during my demotion decision.  That being said, I haven't really been aggressive in a long time, outside of the occasion that I want to play a thug or something similar.  Even then, I typically do not raid or murder in cold blood.  Most people seem to understand that unless I'm provoked, I stay fairly chill.  Once provoked, I can turn from a butterfly to a sexual tryannosaurus.  It's not because I want to hurt people or be violent.  Simply put, if I end up with a situation where the other person is likely to come back and make an attempt on my life, his time is up.  I'm not going to hide around and wait for when he decides to come back with friends, armed and kevlar'd, with the advantage of hitting first.  It's much easier to just throw down while both parties are ill prepared.  I'm one person, I'm not in Lombardi, #R, YMCM.  I don't have a ton of friends who basically sit around and wait for a chance to go murder people for yoloswag.  Little Mac here has a much better chance takin out Glass Joe when King Hippo and Mike Tyson aren't with him.


Third: I don't promote aggressive RP nor even aggressive behavior.  I truly don't.  It was fun when I was new and the community wasn't as dear to me, but I've been here a while, seen people come and go, friend and foe alike.  As aggressive as I can be, I try to stay with RPs like vending machine, street performer, club owner, nexus secretary.  When I feel like being passive aggressive I will play SWAT.  Most times I hang back and tend to let the rest of the team work the raid while I stay outside the entry.  I say it's to watch their backs and make sure they don't get blindsided, but most people don't creep up on SWAT, they usually form a defensive posture of some kind and try to outlast.


Fourth: I don't play word games.  I know I said it in the last post, but I will say it again here.  I do not play word games.  I have a very strong knowledge of rules.  It's a curse really, I've been good with them since I was a child playing board games.  The thought of twisting rules to gain an advantage as well as attempting to twist partial truths to make things go your way sickens me to the core.  What you might interpret as "word games" is most likely the reaction I get when I end up emotional.  I have a combination of issues that I've had to deal with since childhood, it leads me to be impulsive and sometimes volatile.  It's not an excuse, by any means.  Just trying to help you identify with what you experienced.  As smart as I am, as knowledgeable as I am, once I've glued to an emotional response, I can lose some of my critical understanding (not thinking, understanding) ability, which leads to a circle game.  Once I recognized that the situation had become a back and forth, I told you to do what you had to do and that I would see you in the UBR.  It's not intended to be disrespectful in tone, it's just me trying to get it back on track.  YOU are the admin, I am the player.  YOU need to be freed up so that you can go help the rest of the people and if you're lucky, maybe even play a bit.  US going back and forth, making little to no progress after the initial exchange, is really just a waste of BOTH our time.  Whatever you decide at that point becomes how it is, if I don't like it, I take it here as you suggested.


Fifth: I don't feel special because I am former staff.  I don't use my hours to condescend to other players.  I even requested my veteran tag be stripped so players won't try to use that against me.  Yes, I have seen several times "Just because you're a veteran you....."  or even "You're not staff here anymore, stop telling me....."  Trust me when I say, you think life is hard during the busy hours, pray you are smart enough never to get demoted.


I had more, such as trying to understand how I got slapped for aggressive fail rp from someone in Lombardi, the clan with the worst reputation for being insanely aggressive and finding EXCUSES to raid since YMCM or #R, but I felt that would be slinging mud.  I'm sure it's a gem of a clan with some of the most upstanding members of the community in it.
As this post has no value other then to shed light on aspects of my character, I'll understand if you decide to redpost it and won't take it personally.



Disclaimer: The clans listed in this post are purely there to serve as placeholders. They are easily the three most aggressive clans that I have experience in my time here. It's not intended to belittle them in anyway, I suppose that not everyone can be the good guy or passive rp.

[Barkles]

Please don't Like UBRs.

[Obay]

Afternoon, Jokhah
I would like to thank you for your appeal so we can further discuss this case in a more formal manner.  I would like to begin by say these matter do not reach a personal level and this is not to discuss your personal issues, but instead to heighten your Role-play ability and to prevent this happening in the near future as we as a team are here to enhance everyone's role-play experience to most realistic of manners.

Lets discuss the rules that you have broken:

[Combat Rules]
4.1 Do not kill people randomly (RDM); only kill with a valid roleplay reason.

• Your reasoning for killing him was invalid.  In this situation you have mis-understood the value of life and you don't go around killing people (With an AK) because they hit your guitar with a bat.  It was not a strong enough reason to kill someone nor was it realistic.  The most I would expect from this situation was for you to pull a knife on him out of anger or even just have a fist fight.
  

[Basic Roleplay Rule]
2.5 Do not do unrealistic things out of context (FailRP). This includes things such as anti-gravity bathtubs, unrealistic car colours, watermelon fights, etc. when there is no specific roleplay in which they would make sense (i.e. game shows or science roleplays).

• Think about this from a realistic perspective, this does not happen in real life even in the most rough city's, you would ONLY put a low level pistol to the person, but that is what i would expect from the likes of gang member; people that have clearly come from a rough background.  A street Performer on the other hand would not have access to an AK47 even on the occasion that he/she may be in possession of one, they would not carry it would with them when they are performing in front of many citizens; it just does not happen.
  

Rules Broken but not accounted for.
2.1 You must follow FearRP – Your character must act afraid of life-threatening situations or of any weapons pointed at you.

• Because of technical issues, you were not punished for breaking FearRP, however just because you cant hear someone that is pointing a gun at you, do not mean you shouldn't be scared of the weapon that is pointed at you.  You are scared of the weapon they are holding, not the words that are telling you.
  

[Not punished]

[Disclaimer]
The following rules define clearly what is what is not allowed; this is required to maintain a semi-serious and realistic roleplay environment. We expect you to read all of the rules before playing. It may take a few minutes to read all of the rules, but the average ban is a lot longer than that. It's impossible to cover every single detail within the rules, so we expect you to use your common sense and not do questionable things or search for loopholes. If you aren’t sure whether something is allowed or not, ask a staff member to clarify (@ command). All members of administrative staff are referred to throughout as simply ‘admin’.



As stated in the disclaimer, you are responsible for your questionable actions.  You are required to use your common sense at all times.  Failure to do so can spoil other players experiences at present.  As it stands, your Blacklist will not be removed, nor will it be shortened, however I would like to thank you for taking the time explain yourself.

Finishing Notes:
To prevent this happening the future it is recommended that you think out all actions before displaying them in-game.  In this situation it is clear you have underestimated the value of life of yourself and the player you killed and it should not be taken so likely as the average citizen of Evo-City.

I hope these explanations have helped you better understand the rules broken in question and help you in the near future.  Thank you and enjoy your time on our servers.

Fearless Administrator,
~Obay  

[Old Man Jokhah]

Okay, so since a casino owner is allowed to randomly attack people, I know what job I will be beating everyone with a bat with and when they kill me for it, I expect them to suffer the same fate. Agreed?

[Old Man Jokhah]

I mean I'm failing to understand, still, why a passive job is allowed to attack another passive job and it's okay, but because I killed him for failure to comply, I am wrong? Because I have a hostage, I need to drop my weapon when one than one person shows up to stop me? Those are the two remaining points, I wish to argue. I will let go of the AK weapon selection as long as you can provide me with a list of all the weapons I am allowed to use as a citizen.

The point I am getting at is that you are enforcing a policy that isn't written. No where does it state anywhere that I am not allowed to own or use an AK as a citizen.

[Old Man Jokhah]

Final addition before waiting reply.

In no way am I using loopholes to the rules. I was attacked, my business was destroyed. Where does the line get blurred there?

[Old Man Jokhah]

Got a second opinion from a friend of mine on the topic. He agreed with you, that killing the man was extreme. So before you reply, I'll accept that killing the man wasn't the best option.

We debated my choice of weapon. In terms of was it a good option, no. Even I have agreed that the AK wasn't my first choice in weapons. As for realism and fail rp surrounding my weapon, here is the my final battle on that. I made between 5-10k doing street performer rp, there are gunstores in the city at nearly all times. I had made enough money to buy one, I don't see how I'm not allowed to own one. I definately was pulling enough income to buy one.

So to be clear, the only two pieces left that I'm not understanding are these.


Why can I not own any weapon I want so long as I have made the money to purchase them in said job?

and

I still do not understand why he was allowed to attack me as a casino owner in the first place.



Again, with all the "loopholes" in the rules, melee weapons are commonly the single worst choice to use. Players will see you coming after they intentionally provoke a response out of you, see you with your melee weapon, laugh, and pull a gun before you get close enough. This is more of an issue with your rules conflicting with good rp. I mean if I came out with a knife and he pulled a gun on me, the arguement used against me would be fear rp and too bad you didn't get him in fear rp first. It's like you are trying to force me into a lose lose situation in terms of weapon choices.

[Obay]

Good Evening, Jokhah
Thank you for sharing your concern about the matter and I will do my best to explain as best as I can.

To start with, this Unblacklist request is about yourself hence the name 'UBL: Jokah', this is not about the casino owner in question.  However I did not witness the individual who, as you stated 'broke the rules' therefore an investigation was not held nor did I punish him.  However, If you obtain any evidence which would support your statement then please make a 'Ban Request' thread and state the rules that he broken; Our team will be more than happy to look into your concerns.

As for your on-topic concerns.

We debated my choice of weapon. In terms of was it a good option, no. Even I have agreed that the AK wasn't my first choice in weapons. As for realism and fail rp surrounding my weapon, here is the my final battle on that. I made between 5-10k doing street performer rp, there are gunstores in the city at nearly all times. I had made enough money to buy one, I don't see how I'm not allowed to own one. I definately was pulling enough income to buy one.

 Your weapons choices were not realistic, yes as you agreed.
But the realism is not based on the balance of the Gamemode, yes the economy is above the average as it is in real life.  The reason for this being that this is a 'Semi-Serious' roleplay server, therefore the rate at which you gain money is somewhat faster than it is than it would be if it was 'Serious' Roleplay.  This is so you are able to progress somewhat faster in the game and a balance which will not be changed.

Yes as a whole, you are able to easily gain to money to buy the weapon however it is up to you as an individual to use these weapons correctly to suit the 'CityRP' plot of the roleplay.  Because your job is to re-enact the life an average citizen; The average citizen does not walk around with AKs nor do they go around executing people that break their guitar. The maximum I would expect would be a knife or now a baseball bat - This was not reason for your punishment however is was accounted for.

melee weapons are commonly the single worst choice to use. Players will see you coming after they intentionally provoke a response out of you, see you with your melee weapon, laugh, and pull a gun before you get close enough. This is more of an issue with your rules conflicting with good rp. I mean if I came out with a knife and he pulled a gun on me, the arguement used against me would be fear rp and too bad you didn't get him in fear rp first. It's like you are trying to force me into a lose lose situation in terms of weapon choices.

It is not about 'What weapon is the best'.  It is about roleplaying your role effectively and re-enacting the emotions and how a citizen would act if someone was to come up to you and for example: 'smashed your guitar with a bat'.

The correct way to act as a citizen, would be to be feel somewhat intimidated; back off a little and show concern.  If I put myself in that shoes of this street performer, I would be somewhat scared of this person and once I knew I was safe, I would have informed the police.

I for sure would not get out my AK47 and kill him.  I doesn't happen thus the lack of realism resulting in it being FailRP.
Remember, this is not about winning a situation nor is it (May I lightly imply) A team death match.  This is how you act in situation that may arise and how effectively you relate this to realism.   

I hope this helps you better understand the situation and highlights what resulted in your rule breakage of: 'FailRP'.  If you are still struggling to understand I advise that you look at a guide I made about '[GUIDE] Performing Citizen Role Effectively - Experienced Roleplaying.'.


Finishing notes:
Your Blacklist still stands as follows and will not be removed nor will it be shortened.
Remember, you are required to use your common sense when it comes to roleplaying and you are responsible for your actions.

Rules Broken:

• RDM - Killing without a reason - Reason for punishment
  
• FailRP - Unrealistic roleplay - Accounted for.
  

Again, I thank you for sharing your concerns with myself and the team and we will do our best to answer your questions.  In the future can you please write your reply in 1 post and avoid posting multiple.  This will help us read and assess your concerns more effectively and help you as best as we can.
Thank you and enjoy your stay on our servers.


Fearless Administrator,
~Obay

[Old Man Jokhah]

I still do not agree with how this all played out. Being what it is, I am now no longer able to play a citizen because I have to fear for admins taking actions against me for defending myself. That added with that your ruleset promotes raiding for nearly no reason only solidifies, makes playing a citizen more like playing a victim for those who just with to play citystrikeRP.

That being said, I accept that you're not going to budge on the issue.

I recommend that you guys take a serious look around the server and see how it all comes together. It's basically a violent mess and now we are forced to downplay defending ourselves from attackers. This is a serious loss for me.

I really am sorry you had to read. I'm sorry it was a few posts. I've already served my blacklist so whatever. Just remember that if any citizen kills an attacker with a weapon other than a bat or a knife, I will expect them to suffer the same fate I did. That's the message that has been delivered here today. Good day and you may close this at your leisure.