Unban request Patt (in extension Shanze)

[Patt]

Your name: Patt and Shanze

Your ban ID: 53511 (Patt), 53512 (Shanze)

Banned by: [FL] GeorgeTheBoy

Reason: KOS

Involved: Patt (SRU), Shanze (SRU sergeant), Granbo (president), Calypso (security guard, job name Presidents guard), Danvor and Raptor (civilians)

Why we should unban you:
(edit) For Convenience i'm putting relevant permanent laws on top:

“The President is allowed to make any law, at any time. Except laws that are in conflict with the Permanent Laws.”

“Non-officials are not allowed to pass the Nexus desk, if you do, you may be arrested or shot if identified as hostile.”

“Non-officials are only allowed in the Nexus when they have an appointment with the President.”

“Any government officals is not allowed to shoot on sight when there is no order given!”


It states we were KOSing, which is true, but a nonsensical ban reason since we had orders to do so, the validity of this order and action is stated in the permanent law above. The president was a dictator, this was well established and this also resulted in us getting raided a few times after this event (usually happens with dictators). I had a ban request put on me by another guy which can prove this to some extent (http://www.fearlessrp.net/showthread.php?tid=51892). We had a man in the first floor of nexus guarding the elevator that was killed, maybe not by these guys, but we were ready for a raid.


These guys walked in to nexus top floor in what we assumed was a raid, completely without an appointment (they went up to the top floor to request one allegedly, something none of us could know beforehand), not to mention the president was a dictator who had ordered us to shoot anyone coming out of the elevator because the guy downstairs died, this was also well established. We had gotten orders (from the president) to shoot the people inside the elevator because they were positively not a part of neither the government nor anyone we had asked to come up, this order is in complete accordance with the permanent laws quoted above. He had given us an order which in no way contradicts the permanent laws; this isn’t even rdm by definition since it’s a clear order, nothing random about it.

In closing, the president was a dictator, and KOS like this isn’t against permanent IF the president has given us the order, which he had (again dictator, said relevant laws are above), we were SRU and we had to fire (instantly at doors opening) in order to get an advantage on the participants of what we thought would be a raid (we were 3 guys, easily outnumbered). I would also like to add that the footage from the original ban request started halfway through the elevator ride, for all i know they had holstered weapons already, though this is irrelevant towards the ban reason

[Nyander]

Let me make things very clear here.

1 - KOS Is not allowed (I myself got in trouble for it before.) Just because it doesn't mention in the perma laws about it not being allowed doesn't mean you can use it.

2 - Please don't lie in the courthouse you stated that the president was a dictator many times as you can see from this video that he was NOT a dictator and he was only a president. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaXKR6k6cCA Read the president's job name when the player presses tab.) and (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz8df4zqnSc) These two videos show that he WAS NOT a dictator.

3 - You've mentioned the perma law "Non-officials are not allowed to pass the Nexus desk, if you do, you may be arrested or shot if identified as hostile." Allot but I don't think you understand it. What that means that if I pass the nexus desk I can get arrested for trespassing BUT if I was a identified as a hostile I can get shot, I was not a hostile I had no guns out to shoot you or anyone. Also the rules of the server apply to the president's laws. (President Rules Number 1 : As President you have to follow the server rules, for example you can't say that NLR breaking and RDM are allowed.) I said it before and I'll say it again I was not a hostile I did NOT have a gun out nor did I want to raid the president in the 1st place.

4 - EVEN IF I or anyone else wanted to raid the president it would've still been unfair, I think what you had built counted as a doomfort (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz8df4zqnSc)

5 - If the president gave you an order that's against the rules you can tell him that it is against the rules or post a BR or tell an admin using @ <Message> You don't break a rule because the president told you to.

Buttom line : He was not a dictator. I was not attempting a raid. I was not hostile. It was a KOS, you should have arrested me not shoot me dead.

~Please and thank you.

[Patt]

"1 - KOS Is not allowed (I myself got in trouble for it before.) Just because it doesn't mention in the perma laws about it not being allowed doesn't mean you can use it."

"“Any government officals is not allowed to shoot on sight when there is no order given!”"

This perma law begs to differ, it obviously implies the order can be given legaly, why would it be there otherwise?



"2 - Please don't lie in the courthouse you stated that the president was a dictator many times as you can see from this video that he was NOT a dictator and he was only a president."



I was under the impression we were on an RP server, do you think dictators view temselves as anything other than presidents (in modern times) normally? The president had given an absurd amount of crazy laws, including banning cars, corleones and rebels from the city, but to be clear, under these circumstances him being a dictator isn't particularly relevant, i'd give the same order if i were pres, you didn't contact us. Not that it matters, but i don't think i've read anything that states you have to change your job name regardless. As i've said i doubt most dictators view themselves as that.

"3 - You've mentioned the perma law "Non-officials are not allowed to pass the Nexus desk, if you do, you may be arrested or shot if identified as hostile." Allot but I don't think you understand it. What that means that if I pass the nexus desk I can get arrested for trespassing BUT if I was a identified as a hostile I can get shot, I was not a hostile I had no guns out to shoot you or anyone."

First of all, your recording started too late for me to know whether or not your guns were already holstered, your YT channel has several insanely long footages showing you have the diskspace to record for an extended amount of time. Secondly, the law is CLEARLY phrased as a warning to non-officials rather than a law made for the government 

""Non-officials are not allowed to pass the Nexus desk, if you do, you may be arrested or shot if identified as hostile.", 

the law starts by adressing "non-officials" (you), and then continues saying "if YOU do, YOU may be arrested or shot if identified as hostile.", the YOU in the law clearly adresses non-officials; its ment as a warning for you to stay away, it doesn't give us any orders because it's not adressing us. This is nevertheless irrelevant, because the president had positively identified you as neither part of the government nor anyone he wanted a visit from, thus you were identified as hostile since we had no contact with you. You were in the elevator during what we assumed was a raid because a guard in the lobby was killed, you didn't bother sending us any notice you just wanted a meeting and yet you're surprised to be identified as hostile. I also want to bring up the permanent law you didn't dispute: 


“Non-officials are only allowed in the Nexus when they have an appointment with the President.”.

Get an appointment first, did you think you were going to be identified as friendly?



"4 - EVEN IF I or anyone else wanted to raid the president it would've still been unfair, I think what you had built counted as a doomfort ("

We built ONE wall in front of the elevator, on the rightside you could walk straight in, if that's a doomfort anything is.



"5 - If the president gave you an order that's against the rules you can tell him that it is against the rules or post a BR or tell an admin using @ <Message> You don't break a rule because the president told you to."

Which rule? The one telling you of the dangers of going inside the nexus or the one allowing us to KOS given the order?

[Temar]

You don't rdm it's a rule
Kos is pretty much telling people to rdm
You only kill with reason
Or in cops case it more strict that they need to be a threat. Eg armed
Unarmed in nexus is arrestable never kill able

[Nyander]

If I had guns before the recording then It'll show up in the logs and I didn't, trust me I didn't want to raid the president. Also I didn't break a RULE I broke a LAW and if I break a law I get arrested not shot to death. You can only shoot me if I had a gun.

This is something not related to the UBR but its something that you should understand :

It is a Smi-Serious server and its goal is to make a great RP experience to the players, people want the RP to feel like something real... and in real life a cop or any goverment official WILL NOT shot at unarmed citizens even if they have suspicion to believe that they might carry guns however he does arrest them. and in another real life situation a person would only refer to a gun when it is the last resort.

I don't know if you could tell but the server admins and mods support more PassiveRP than AggressiveRP just because you have a good reason to kill someone(Which you didn't) doesn't mean you HAVE to.

[Patt]

You don't rdm it's a rule
Kos is pretty much telling people to rdm
You only kill with reason
Or in cops case it more strict that they need to be a threat. Eg armed
Unarmed in nexus is arrestable never kill able

Its called rdm because its random, the president identifying the occupants of the elevator as hostile because of a raid and then issuing a KOS on its inhabitants is not in any way random nor contradicting towards any laws.  There had been several broadcasts banning all civilians from entering the nexus, and when a guard dies inside the nexus right before it's reasonable to assume the people involved aren't friendly.

There is one permanent law regarding KOS and it clearly implies KOS can be used if issued an order, which I had been. If KOS is the same as RDM, then why is there a law specifically on KOS when RDM is never allowed?

[Nyander]

As I said, the rules of the server applies to everyone even the president. So both the President or Dictator should have a valid reason to tell their units to shoot someone, just because someone got killed in the lobby doesn't mean that you shoot unarmed citizens. Now about the KOS, KOS means Kill On Sight, which is NOT This

"Any government officals is not allowed to shoot on sight when there is no order given!" just because the president gave you an order to shoot doesn't mean you have to, you need to have a valid reason to shoot me, Don't blame it on the president or dictator.

"RDM - Random death match. When someone is killed without a valid RP reason*. " This was stated by Doomdude1(An admin) in the forums post here (http://www.fearlessrp.net/showthread.php?tid=29166) Also OOC and IC Rule Number (3) read them. He also said "You are supposed to use common sense when following the rules, as they can't cover every situation. In case you are not sure, ask an administrator/moderator, it's much easier to wait for an answer than waiting a ban out."

Please take the time and read the rules. I am starting to memorize some of them by number.

[Patt]

I was an SRU, president thought there would be hostiles inside the elevator, thus giving us an order to KOS anyone inside the elevator, why on earth would that not be a valid reason to order the KOS under the permanent law regarding KOS?

This isnt Random Death Match, we were given an order by the president based on a logical conclusion, what did you think would happen going up without neither asking nor telling you were going to come up. We were raided several times later, corleones are proven to have raided us based on the ban request linked in my first post, we were on edge because of the corleones with good reason.

[Nyander]

Ok, I'm going to say this one more time and then I'm going to let the admins decide.

1 - I was NOT armed.

2 - I was NOT going to raid the President/ Dictator.

3 - I was NOT a hostile.

4 - You don't shoot an unarmed person.

A logical conclusion would have been me being arrested not shoot dead, as I said you don't shoot an unarmed citizen. I was not identified as hostile, so you had no reason to shoot at us.

[Granbo]

I was the president, and you can see by my laws that I was a dictator. A president can be just as much a dictator no matter if my job is King, dictator or president. I must also add that because of many shootouts inside the nexus I broadcasted several times that anyone walking past the nexus desk and taking the elevator up would be seen as a threat to me, and it was up to the officer to do whatever he deemed necessary to protect me, so no matter if you had a gun out or not, you where seen as a threat. You going into the elevator, with TONS of warnings in broadcast, is just as stupid as someone sneeking into a military camp while its on lockdown. How-To-Get-Shot 101.