2-4 Other unknown civilians in the area watching this occur
Why we should unban you:
The situation that lead to the ban in question started when Rolorox was attempting to detain an unknown suspect in the city, at the time me and dub acting were as a FUMUKU Security Officer moveing through the city on our way to elsewhere.
We see Rolorox "At the time unknown, we just saw a normal police officer" capture the suspect and begin the detain him, we notice a man in a suit had been following him the entire time and the moment rolorox attempts to detain the suspect, the man in the suit pulls a mac10 and starts to fire on him.
Not willing to stand by and let an officer get gunned down in the street we exit our vehicles and give chase to the man, who upon seeing us in our gear starts to run/reload, when we round the corner he fires on us and we fire on him, he dies.
Rolorox rounds the corner, I assume after either taking cover and then dealing with the original suspect and proceeds to tell us to get against the wall. At first we complied and simply slung our weapons on our shoulders until he attempted to cuff us and thus prevent me from making dirrect contact with his superiors. Upon him cuffing dubwub i quickly unsling my weapon, and kept it at my side and tell him that i'm going to contact his superior about this and get this all sorted, as he is attempting to arrest two people who had just saved his life.
After a short time a few SRU get involved, the SRU sgt simply runs up and cuffs me, before being told he cant do so, he releases me and we revert to the situation before he cuffed me, i make contact with the president regarding the matter and at one point i can overhear on the police radio the SRU Sergeant saying somthing about us and a question on whether he was just to leave us.
He eventualy seemingly walked away, leaving just James3000117 and one other SRU, and rolorox.
Not much more happened beyond this besides me trying to calmly tell them to wait while i get a confermation of the situation with the president.
(Of which while they dont need to listen to me on a normal basis, everyone in this situation was armed from the begining, and thus in a mexican standoff situation, in essense whoever shoots first kicks off combat, though the situation was not hostile in anyway and seemed to be going the route of negotiation, minus a few people screaming)
The server began to get attacked not long after, and when it comes back online, ive been issued a 3 day ban by Grub for FearRP.
Grub had seemingly been called via @ to check the situation, of which he stated "I told everyone to continue because it shouldn't come to that. A big circle of everyone with weapons yelling."
Grub told everyone to continue the situation, of which not long after the server gets hit by a DDoS attack, why then was I issued a fearRP ban if I was instructed to continue with the situation, and when the situation never got a resolution, and not a shot had been fired?
From what ive gathered from multiple mods/admins/superadmins regarding the type of situation i was in, it does not seem to be classed under fearRP as it seems to be classed as:
"If both groups are armed, and were armed since the begining of the incident, fearRP does not apply as both would not be afraid of the other"
"If both parties have a weapon, they cant order eachother around"
Both groups of people were indeed armed at the start, and thus not under fearRPs normal (Unarmed man V Armed Man) Scenario, and in a mexican standoff scenario, where its up to those involved decide how they act and if they wish to risk a violent outcome due to both knowing they are armed and can potentialy deal with those they are stareing down.
In this kind of situation, no matter who fires first, people on both sides die, and the police must do their best to prevent unneeded deaths. IE:If the SRU attempt to kill me, i would have had to kill Rolorox or whoever i had in my sights at the time.
If I for some insane reason was to kill whoever i had in my sights, the SRU or Police would have shot me.
By that logic this is a situation where the only way it ends peacefully and with everybody walking away unharmed, is by attempting to talk it down, of which i was attempting, knowing full well if i complyed with their order to "Put my gun down" no matter what I say, the outcome would have been either they kill me or arrest me for saving a police officer. Only the president either sideing with me or stateing for me to stand down would have solved this situation peacefully, which for all we know, may have occured. But since the server was attacked the entire thing had no end result.
I simply request the ban to be undone and removed from my record, as it appears that I have not broken fearRP in the situation I was in at the time.
08-31-2013, 10:48 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2022, 01:02 AM by Fearless Community.
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Not trying to be the bad guy here but it obviously sounds better for you when only your side is told so I will tell mine.
As he stated I was cuffing a fugitive and someone, who it was is unknown, started to fire on me. Right away I ran around the corner to get cover and call for backup and this is when I saw Blackdog and Dubwub (sorry If thats not the current name you are using) get out of their hummers and pursue the armed suspect.
Obviously as an officer I am grateful for them saving my life but the truth is they had no right to intervene. They may have been Fumuku Security as Blackdog has stated but the president never said they were working with the government nor did it seem like it. They were just driving around the city and outside the city in hummers.
So from here I had to do what any officer in real life would and I had to detain them. The truth of the matter is, unless self defense (what I was under) murder is still murder. Especially if the people at question are not government associated. They are just "Civilians" in my eyes and shouldn't get involved.
So I asked them both to stand up against the wall (and at no time did I see a /me of blackdog putting the gun slung on his back). The reason I state this is because he made the argument that I never used /me to take it off and in no way during normal confrontation would I expect that I would have to do that. It seemed like an easy excuse to be able to pull it out.
So as Dubwub was standing to my left and Blackdog was directly infront of me, I continued to arrest Dubwub on an angle and then when I turned looking directly at Blackdog I said "You are under arrest for having an illegal firearm in public and manslaughter" (or murder whatever I said). I then started to cuff him but ran back on a diagonal and pulled out his weapon before the cuffs finished. He tried to argue my attention was elsewhere but I was putting the cuffs on him at the time. He also argued that cuffs don't apply fear RP but the truth is I would have had a hold of his hands, and with the slung gun on his back, realistically I would have taken it off in a situation like that but I never knew it was there cause he never stated so.
The fact that this is Gmod disables me from a lot of obvious precautions that would happen in a real life situation. So in no way should he have been able to do this. He then proceeds to stand there and type on a PDA but again this would not have happened because he should have been handcuffed SRU arrived and with all 4 of us around him he shouldn't be able to act how he wants and call the shots. I continuously told him to put the gun down and get up against the wall, but he ignored me and just said "I'm sorting this out with the president". This which if he just RP'd we could have brought him to the president to sort it out. But he just wanted things his way.
This whole time Dubwub just complied. This could have been easily avoided by accepting the arrest or RPing that he wanted to talk to the president about it, telling me more why it is a wrongful arrest put he said nothing to me. I am not new I can RP a situation but it just seemed like it wasn't going to happen. Grub was there watching the whole thing, even came out at one point to tell us to continue and give him another chance to understand that although he had a gun FearRP in shear numbers was being applied and he has to make a choice. Instead he just stood there telling us to wait and at one point saying he can't hear me which I just find a waste of time and stalling when we could have just RP'd the situation at least.
I would also like to add for shear continuity that Blackdog did have a weapon and was wrongfully arrested by the SRU so I told him he had to let him go and we continued. But no matter how much he doesn't think so it was a gray area of FearRP where he is surrounded so he had to make a choice which we gave, A. Put the gun down and get against the wall. B. Let the situation get ugly and probably turn into a firefight. But I gave him this choice to which he ignored.
09-01-2013, 12:07 AM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2022, 01:02 AM by Fearless Community.
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(08-31-2013, 10:48 PM)Rolorox Wrote: "Obviously as an officer I am grateful for them saving my life but the truth is they had no right to intervene."
"So from here I had to do what any officer in real life would and I had to detain them. The truth of the matter is, unless self defense (what I was under) murder is still murder. Especially if the people at question are not government associated. They are just "Civilians" in my eyes and shouldn't get involved."
Civilians get involved more often than you think in the defence of on duty officers, and are often rewarded for this fact, i site 5 news articles on the matter:
"So I asked them both to stand up against the wall (and at no time did I see a /me of blackdog putting the gun slung on his back). The reason I state this is because he made the argument that I never used /me to take it off and in no way during normal confrontation would I expect that I would have to do that. It seemed like an easy excuse to be able to pull it out."
You at no point made any attempt to releave us of our weapons, we simply shouldered our weapons "Temporarly put them away, while they are still equiped" while we were going to attempt to talk the situation out, the moment you started to cuff dubwub we knew you were no longer going to attempt to talk the matter out and simply cuff us, and get an arrest warrant on us, for an action that in actuality, would be seen as an act of bravery and the person would be rewarded
"So as Dubwub was standing to my left and Blackdog was directly infront of me, I continued to arrest Dubwub on an angle and then when I turned looking directly at Blackdog I said "You are under arrest for having an illegal firearm in public and manslaughter" (or murder whatever I said). I then started to cuff him but ran back on a diagonal and pulled out his weapon before the cuffs finished. He tried to argue my attention was elsewhere but I was putting the cuffs on him at the time. He also argued that cuffs don't apply fear RP but the truth is I would have had a hold of his hands, and with the slung gun on his back, realistically I would have taken it off in a situation like that but I never knew it was there cause he never stated so."
I saw no attempt to cuff me, you cuffed dubwub and an uninvolved civilian giving me ample time to react to the situation
"The fact that this is Gmod disables me from a lot of obvious precautions that would happen in a real life situation. "
Not so much true, as you are fully capable of /meing an entire situation if you are willing to allow it to go that route, you instead walked up to two people who outgunned you in every aspect and demanded them to face the wall, who shockinlg didnt just blow you away as would have been the case in any other situation and proceeded to comply assumeing you were not just going to slap cuffs and a warrant on them and RP the stuation
"So in no way should he have been able to do this. He then proceeds to stand there and type on a PDA but again this would not have happened because he should have been handcuffed SRU arrived and with all 4 of us around him he shouldn't be able to act how he wants and call the shots. I continuously told him to put the gun down and get up against the wall, but he ignored me and just said "I'm sorting this out with the president". This which if he just RP'd we could have brought him to the president to sort it out. But he just wanted things his way."
Wrist mounted PDAs are not hard to type into, which this was my RP attempt to contact the president about the situation as you continued to blow it entirely out of purportion, and have it settled peacefully, according to multiple staff, fearRP does not apply in this situation as both groups are armed, and therefor the standard Unarmed v Armed situation does not apply, it is up to the players involved in the action to decide how they wish to go about it, you did not have 100% full control over the situation as I was armed as well, better armed then the responding officers, with an escape vehicle not far away, and a plan to in the event you fired on me, to do as much damage as I could to reach said escape vehicle
"This whole time Dubwub just complied. This could have been easily avoided by accepting the arrest or RPing that he wanted to talk to the president about it, telling me more why it is a wrongful arrest put he said nothing to me."
This is exactly what i kept telling you, but you kept screaming at me, so i contact the president dirrectly, such can be seen in the logs shortly after my PDA /mes
"I am not new I can RP a situation but it just seemed like it wasn't going to happen." I cite the above
Grub was there watching the whole thing, even came out at one point to tell us to continue and give him another chance to understand that although he had a gun FearRP in shear numbers was being applied and he has to make a choice. Instead he just stood there telling us to wait and at one point saying he can't hear me which I just find a waste of time and stalling when we could have just RP'd the situation at least.
According to grub,all he said was to continue the situation, and that people should stop screaming, if there was a true issue with how it was going down, he would have pulled everyone aside and discussed it, and had it sorted out
I would also like to add for shear continuity that Blackdog did have a weapon and was wrongfully arrested by the SRU so I told him he had to let him go and we continued. I question why the SRU sgt was never punished for his blatent failRP and why it took us argueing with him to finaly get him to stand down
"But no matter how much he doesn't think so it was a gray area of FearRPwhere he is surrounded so he had to make a choice which we gave, A. Put the gun down and get against the wall. B. Let the situation get ugly and probably turn into a firefight. But I gave him this choice to which he ignored."
Your correct, it is a grey area, though from my conversations with staff, it appears my actions were fully allowed, you gave me a choice to obey you, i declined, and instead tried to talk the situation down, of which you declined, sadly the situation never got a conclusion due to the server attack
Note: Just to clarify, not sure which part you mentioned it at, but yes FUMUKU was not working for the government at the time, we were simply driving around looking for a spot to setup an office so we could think of somthing to do, when we saw him try to murder you, and then we saved you. This does not instantly make it murder as it is still self defence as he fired on us when we rounded the corner,an appropriate response, and of course the defence of an officer of the law.
09-01-2013, 01:58 AM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2022, 01:02 AM by Fearless Community.
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(09-01-2013, 12:07 AM)BlackDog Wrote:
(08-31-2013, 10:48 PM)Rolorox Wrote: "Obviously as an officer I am grateful for them saving my life but the truth is they had no right to intervene."
"So from here I had to do what any officer in real life would and I had to detain them. The truth of the matter is, unless self defense (what I was under) murder is still murder. Especially if the people at question are not government associated. They are just "Civilians" in my eyes and shouldn't get involved."
Civilians get involved more often than you think in the defence of on duty officers, and are often rewarded for this fact, i site 5 news articles on the matter:
A couple cases were people were rewarded doesn't make it just. It doesn't always happen that way. Your weapons far exceeded what might be legal to carry like a sidearm. If you didn't right away assume I was going to just arrest you without talking I might have not charged for manslaughter just illegal weapons.
"So I asked them both to stand up against the wall (and at no time did I see a /me of blackdog putting the gun slung on his back). The reason I state this is because he made the argument that I never used /me to take it off and in no way during normal confrontation would I expect that I would have to do that. It seemed like an easy excuse to be able to pull it out."
You at no point made any attempt to releave us of our weapons, we simply shouldered our weapons "Temporarly put them away, while they are still equiped" while we were going to attempt to talk the situation out, the moment you started to cuff dubwub we knew you were no longer going to attempt to talk the matter out and simply cuff us, and get an arrest warrant on us, for an action that in actuality, would be seen as an act of bravery and the person would be rewarded
As I have never seen, nor do many people act in such away, I would not assume that you put the weapons on your shoulder. You did not use /me to say so. You can argue "but where would it go then?" but to that its the obvious, well this is Gmod so I don't think that it would be easily accessible. I was putting the cuffs on you so that you couldn't pull a gun randomly and we could talk. You assumed and assumed wrong that I was just going to arrest you. I said I was going to arrest you but I roleplay so I wasn't going to just do it, I always give people their Rights first and ask if they have anything to say on the matter. You right away ran back and started to get mad at me
"So as Dubwub was standing to my left and Blackdog was directly infront of me, I continued to arrest Dubwub on an angle and then when I turned looking directly at Blackdog I said "You are under arrest for having an illegal firearm in public and manslaughter" (or murder whatever I said). I then started to cuff him but ran back on a diagonal and pulled out his weapon before the cuffs finished. He tried to argue my attention was elsewhere but I was putting the cuffs on him at the time. He also argued that cuffs don't apply fear RP but the truth is I would have had a hold of his hands, and with the slung gun on his back, realistically I would have taken it off in a situation like that but I never knew it was there cause he never stated so."
I saw no attempt to cuff me, you cuffed dubwub and an uninvolved civilian giving me ample time to react to the situation
Well this is wrong due to the fact that I did not cuff that uninvolved civilian, he came over with an SRU already cuffed. I put cuffs on dubwub then instantly turned to you as I told you what you were being arrested for giving you no time to react as I was already putting the cuffs on when you ran back
"The fact that this is Gmod disables me from a lot of obvious precautions that would happen in a real life situation. "
Not so much true, as you are fully capable of /meing an entire situation if you are willing to allow it to go that route, you instead walked up to two people who outgunned you in every aspect and demanded them to face the wall, who shockinlg didnt just blow you away as would have been the case in any other situation and proceeded to comply assumeing you were not just going to slap cuffs and a warrant on them and RP the stuation
As I said you did not /me slings gun on shoulder, so I could not assume you did so. You could have assumed I had taken the gun or that you dropped the gun. I had nothing to work off of. Also I asked you nicely to put your guns down and get against the wall, yes I was outgunned and you could have killed me but the point is that you didn't and in my eyes that means you put the guns down and got against the wall. I never warranted you because like I said above I give rights and ask if you have any input first, I do it with everyone when RPing an officer. You ran back before I could, I like to make sure the person is cuffed first I have the miranda rights binded
"So in no way should he have been able to do this. He then proceeds to stand there and type on a PDA but again this would not have happened because he should have been handcuffed SRU arrived and with all 4 of us around him he shouldn't be able to act how he wants and call the shots. I continuously told him to put the gun down and get up against the wall, but he ignored me and just said "I'm sorting this out with the president". This which if he just RP'd we could have brought him to the president to sort it out. But he just wanted things his way."
Wrist mounted PDAs are not hard to type into, which this was my RP attempt to contact the president about the situation as you continued to blow it entirely out of purportion, and have it settled peacefully, according to multiple staff, fearRP does not apply in this situation as both groups are armed, and therefor the standard Unarmed v Armed situation does not apply, it is up to the players involved in the action to decide how they wish to go about it, you did not have 100% full control over the situation as I was armed as well, better armed then the responding officers, with an escape vehicle not far away, and a plan to in the event you fired on me, to do as much damage as I could to reach said escape vehicle
No where in your bio did it say you were wearing a PDA which means the fact that you used one in such a way is powergaming. To all of a sudden have some kind of device other than a cellphone giving you easy access to message the president is an unfair advantage. Also situation FearRP does apply. You were 1 person with a Galil against 1 Officer with a pistol and 3 Sru with M4s and UMPs. FearRP is when you fear for your life which was the case here. Your gun was pointed at the ground and at least 2 of our guns were pointed at you the entire time. If you shot you would not have been able to get to an escape vehicle. Just caused you are more experienced doesn't mean fearRP doesn't apply cause you think you can outgun 4 people. Thats what it comes down to when you make these comments.
"This whole time Dubwub just complied. This could have been easily avoided by accepting the arrest or RPing that he wanted to talk to the president about it, telling me more why it is a wrongful arrest put he said nothing to me."
This is exactly what i kept telling you, but you kept screaming at me, so i contact the president dirrectly, such can be seen in the logs shortly after my PDA /mes
I was not screaming at all and I didn't even go out of character until the SRU cuffed you. I was handling it normally. Also again your ability to easily contact the president is powergaming especially to contact him as you are of higher authority than myself and the SRU
"I am not new I can RP a situation but it just seemed like it wasn't going to happen." I cite the above I cite the above
Grub was there watching the whole thing, even came out at one point to tell us to continue and give him another chance to understand that although he had a gun FearRP in shear numbers was being applied and he has to make a choice. Instead he just stood there telling us to wait and at one point saying he can't hear me which I just find a waste of time and stalling when we could have just RP'd the situation at least.
According to grub,all he said was to continue the situation, and that people should stop screaming, if there was a true issue with how it was going down, he would have pulled everyone aside and discussed it, and had it sorted out
He also stated that 4 officers are pointing guns at you and that you should understand that there is FearRP going on
I would also like to add for shear continuity that Blackdog did have a weapon and was wrongfully arrested by the SRU so I told him he had to let him go and we continued. I question why the SRU sgt was never punished for his blatent failRP and why it took us argueing with him to finaly get him to stand down This has no relevance with the ban at hand and sometimes people still need to learn things. He was taught why what he did was wrong and fixed it. Punishment does not seem necessary
"But no matter how much he doesn't think so it was a gray area of FearRPwhere he is surrounded so he had to make a choice which we gave, A. Put the gun down and get against the wall. B. Let the situation get ugly and probably turn into a firefight. But I gave him this choice to which he ignored."
Your correct, it is a grey area, though from my conversations with staff, it appears my actions were fully allowed, you gave me a choice to obey you, i declined, and instead tried to talk the situation down, of which you declined, sadly the situation never got a conclusion due to the server attack
I would like the admins to say that this is true, also you never stated that you declined since that would have lead to a firefight as I would have ordered you to put the gun down or else take lethal actions. Also you never "tried to talk" and I never declined talking. I would have talked if you putt the cuffs on but you refused this. Instead you just said over and over that you were contacting the president to get out of it instead of just working with the current situation at hand
09-01-2013, 05:55 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2022, 01:02 AM by Fearless Community.
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Upon him cuffing dubwub i quickly unsling my weapon, and kept it at my side and tell him that i'm going to contact his superior about this and get this all sorted, as he is attempting to arrest two people who had just saved his life.
First FearRP break right here. After Rolo handcuffed Dubwub, he approached you and I even heard the noise of the cuffs as he attempted to handcuff you. You quickly turn around and put a gun in his face. Before, I get into it, Rolo had two reasons to arrest you. Illegal firearms and the fact you just murdered someone. I don't know what laws you have up in Canada, but down here if you save someone's life from killing another you can still get prison time. Now Blackdog, I was watching the situation from the start since a certain player called me over since they said you were back seat administrating by killing the guy that was trying to kill the cop. So, I'm watching for awhile as more SRU arrive to the scene. Now lets keep in mind, you are the only one armed at this point. Dubwub is running around in circles (Which I do believe is FailRP). At this time I announced for everyone to continue forward since it was becoming an eyesore since you guys couldn't continue forward without announcing some stupid excuse.
Wrist mounted PDAs are not hard to type into, which this was my RP attempt to contact the president
One this isn't in your description which isn't a big deal, but it is a huge matter when you blatantly broke FearRP. You have your gun pointed at the ground, yet you continue to talk into your PDA even as Three Armed Men are screaming for you to put the weapon down. You are outnumbered and outgunned. Any false moves and you're going to drop dead, you fear for your life. You aren't going to take the chance of running and gunning to escape. You're dead either way you go.
according to multiple staff, fearRP does not apply in this situation as both groups are armed You didn't explain the full situation now did you? You had your weapon pointed down at the ground. As soon as you pulled up the weapon to shoot one, you'd be killed on the spot.
you did not have 100% full control over the situation as I was armed as well, better armed then the responding officers, with an escape vehicle not far away, and a plan to in the event you fired on me, to do as much damage as I could to reach said escape vehicle I don't think you understand the situation you put yourself into. You wouldn't be able to escape, you wouldn't be able to pull the gun up in time, you wouldn't be able to make it a foot without hitting the payment in a blood pool.
This is exactly what i kept telling you, but you kept screaming at me
Yet you didn't listen to him now did you thus proving you broke fearRP in your words.
According to grub,all he said was to continue the situation, and that people should stop screaming, if there was a true issue with how it was going down, he would have pulled everyone aside and discussed it, and had it sorted out
I also added the fact why you were being arrested but that was ignored as well. Since you all were debating why you were being arrested when its all quite clear.
-Murder
-Illegal weapons. You have an automatic weapon designed as a light machine gun. You expect an officer to ignore that?
Your correct, it is a grey area, though from my conversations with staff, it appears my actions were fully allowed, you gave me a choice to obey you, i declined, and instead tried to talk the situation down, of which you declined, sadly the situation never got a conclusion due to the server attack
How about you actually tell them the full situation since you cut a few things to make yourself look better in the scenario.
[Image: grubsiggy.gif] "A man must stand in the eyes of fear and march on to lead those who follow him to victory. Through these battles, a man will build himself a home, a place of refuge and happiness for those he cares about." - Grub
09-01-2013, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2022, 01:02 AM by Fearless Community.
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(09-01-2013, 05:55 PM)Grub Wrote: Upon him cuffing dubwub i quickly unsling my weapon, and kept it at my side and tell him that i'm going to contact his superior about this and get this all sorted, as he is attempting to arrest two people who had just saved his life.
"First FearRP break right here. After Rolo handcuffed Dubwub, he approached you and I even heard the noise of the cuffs as he attempted to handcuff you".
I dont think cuffs make a sound, nor did i see any chat text informing me he was cuffing me, Please elaborate how though if he is focused on cuffing another that it is fearRP
"You quickly turn around and put a gun in his face. Before, I get into it, Rolo had two reasons to arrest you. Illegal firearms and the fact you just murdered someone. I don't know what laws you have up in Canada, but down here if you save someone's life from killing another you can still get prison time."
This whole thing is not about whether or not he had any reason to arrest us, though murder is not one of them
Now Blackdog, I was watching the situation from the start since a certain player called me over since they said you were back seat administrating by killing the guy that was trying to kill the cop. So, I'm watching for awhile as more SRU arrive to the scene. Now lets keep in mind, you are the only one armed at this point. [Dubwub is running around in circles (Which I do believe is FailRP).
False as dubwub was not the person running around in circles, it was a civi who had been accidentaly handcuffed trying to get people to listen to him to uncuff him
At this time I announced for everyone to continue forward since it was becoming an eyesore since you guys couldn't continue forward without announcing some stupid excuse.
If the situation was a problem in your eyes, why did you not step in and attempt to correct it? Mind you the situation was fully allowed, i still wonder why you did not step in
Wrist mounted PDAs are not hard to type into, which this was my RP attempt to contact the president
One this isn't in your description which isn't a big deal, but it is a huge matter when you blatantly broke FearRP. You have your gun pointed at the ground, yet you continue to talk into your PDA even as Three Armed Men are screaming for you to put the weapon down. You are outnumbered and outgunned. Any false moves and you're going to drop dead, you fear for your life. You aren't going to take the chance of running and gunning to escape. You're dead either way you go.
This appears to be a choice that is fully allowed in this kind of situation, as both parties are armed, regardless of how much one side outnumbers the other, it is no longer a fearRP Unarmed V Armed situation, it is now fully up to the players involved to risk the conciquences of their actions
according to multiple staff, fearRP does not apply in this situation as both groups are armed You didn't explain the full situation now did you? You had your weapon pointed down at the ground. As soon as you pulled up the weapon to shoot one, you'd be killed on the spot.
you did not have 100% full control over the situation as I was armed as well, better armed then the responding officers, with an escape vehicle not far away, and a plan to in the event you fired on me, to do as much damage as I could to reach said escape vehicle
I don't think you understand the situation you put yourself into. You wouldn't be able to escape, you wouldn't be able to pull the gun up in time, you wouldn't be able to make it a foot without hitting the payment in a blood pool.
It wouldnt have been hard to make a successfull attempt, as only 3 targets were there, they wouldnt fire on me first as I was uncombative, but if i so decided I could have quickly droped 1 of the SRU in an instant, and due to him being so close to the other, moved on to him with very little threat from the under equiped police officer responding, and quickly make my escape with very little threat to my personal being due to my entire body being covered head to toe in bodyarmor
This is exactly what i kept telling you, but you kept screaming at me
Yet you didn't listen to him now did you thus proving you broke fearRP in your words.
I cite the above where the situation is no longer a fearRP situation
According to grub,all he said was to continue the situation, and that people should stop screaming, if there was a true issue with how it was going down, he would have pulled everyone aside and discussed it, and had it sorted out
I also added the fact why you were being arrested but that was ignored as well. Since you all were debating why you were being arrested when its all quite clear.
-MurderNot murder but a case self defence, as the man in question fired on us as well
-Illegal weapons. You have an automatic weapon designed as a light machine gun. You expect an officer to ignore that? You would be surprised how often one does after you save their life, or meerly slap you with a warning, or a fine, not an imediate non RP cuffing and future arrest warrant
Your correct, it is a grey area, though from my conversations with staff, it appears my actions were fully allowed, you gave me a choice to obey you, i declined, and instead tried to talk the situation down, of which you declined, sadly the situation never got a conclusion due to the server attack
How about you actually tell them the full situation since you cut a few things to make yourself look better in the scenario.
The question i asked them was the situation in question:
if two people are armed and faceing eachother, fearRP dosnt normaly apply in terms of ordering the person around as both are armed, but if one side starts to get more people, it becomes a mexican standoff type affair, is it still fearRP even though both sides are armed and were armed since the start of the situation?
The chats i had with staff regarding this type of situation
Killjoy:
12:49 AM - BlackDog: Hey killjoy you available right now for a quick question?
12:55 AM - [FL] Killjoy: sure, shoot
12:55 AM - BlackDog: if two people are armed and faceing eachother, fearRP dosnt normaly apply in terms of ordering the person around as both are armed, but if one side starts to get more people, it becomes a mexican standoff type affair, is it still fearRP even though both sides are armed and were armed since the start of the situation?
12:58 AM - [FL] Killjoy: i wouldnt pull fearrp in that situation
12:59 AM - [FL] Killjoy: if anyone were to put his gun away knowingly (not by accident when toggling through slots or menues) then it'll be unarmed vs armed, thus fear for ones life should be pretty actual
12:59 AM - BlackDog: Alright, asking around on everyones opinions on these kinds of situations
1:00 AM - BlackDog: trying to get some clarification before i attempt to post an unban, seems most are leaning towards "If both sides are armed, and were armed since the begining of the incident, fearRP does not apply as both would not be afraid of the other"
1:00 AM - [FL] Killjoy: and what did you get so far?
1:01 AM - [FL] Killjoy: thing is, if you both are armed, you both in real life are afraid of eachother - if you werent afraid of the other party, youd put yours away and light a cigarette or something
1:01 AM - [FL] Killjoy: so obviously both parties will be cautios and edgy as hell
1:01 AM - BlackDog: true, though that was more a quote from spart about the not being afraid of eachother
1:01 AM - [FL] Killjoy: but usually players distrust eachother enough to RP it out instinctively
1:01 AM - BlackDog: It seems to be boiling down to if both parties have a weapon, they cant order eachother around
1:02 AM - [FL] Killjoy: well yeah, thats how i see it too
Faustie:
7:24 PM - King Theoden is now Online.
7:28 PM - BlackDog: When your able just a question, if two people are armed and faceing eachother, fearRP dosnt apply in terms of ordering the person around as both are armed, but if one side starts to get more people, it becomes a mexican standoff type affair, is it still fearRP even though both sides are armed and were armed since the start of the situation?
(Snipped chat about a mouse)
7:37 PM - BlackDog: but able to give me your opinon on the above, trying to chcek with people on their opinions, so far it seems to be leaning towards "If both groups are armed, and were armed since the begining of the incident, fearRP does not apply as both would not be afraid of the other"
7:38 PM - King Theoden: i wouldn't say its fearRP
7:38 PM - King Theoden: seeing as
7:38 PM - King Theoden: they're both armed
Spartanjunior:
7:22 PM - BlackDog: hey spart, a question, if two people are armed and faceing eachother, fearRP dosnt apply in terms of ordering the perso naround as both are armed, but if one side starts to get more people, it becomes a mexican standoff type affair, is it still fearRP even though both sides are armed?
7:25 PM - [FL] Spartanjunior: They are both armed since the start so I don't think the other side would be afraid of the situation.
Enzyme:
7:27 PM - BlackDog: Hey enzyme, a question, if two people are armed and faceing eachother, fearRP dosnt apply in terms of ordering the person around as both are armed, but if one side starts to get more people, it becomes a mexican standoff type affair, is it still fearRP even though both sides are armed and were armed since the start of the situation?
7:28 PM - [FL:M] Enzyme is now playing Garry's Mod. Click here to join.
7:31 PM - [FL:M] Enzyme: Well, as I see it. They kinda cancel eachother out. I'd say if both sides are of equal number and armament, then I wouln't really say any side is at an advantage, and therefore not FearRP. But then again... Im only a mod and its 4:30 am, so im kinda.. tired
7:31 PM - BlackDog: lol alright, just checken, im checking with multiple staff, so far the opinion seems to be leaning towards "If both groups are armed, and were armed since the begining of the incident, fearRP does not apply as both would not be afraid of the other"
7:32 PM - [FL:M] Enzyme: Indeed, is this a situation you've encountered yourself?
09-01-2013, 10:30 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2022, 01:02 AM by Fearless Community.
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Starting a new post since there is too much bold text now.
None of these chats show your situation. I'll even use a picture to show one of the exact points. Since clearly you didn't tell the selected staff the whole situation.
You were exactly like that using your "PDA". So next time you contact the staff, please include the full situation because clearly you missed half of it on purpose for your own personal gain. After multiple times the SRU and the cop were yelling for roughly a couple of minutes, the server was under attack. This of course does not excuse your action of ignoring the weapons during that time when you were contacting the President via PDA.
Actually Blackdog, I'd like to point out another fact here.
-You changed the situation to every admin you contacted this about.
-In fact, you didn't even list all the admins opinions either. You left every one that didn't agree with you.
You mind explaining yourself?
[Image: grubsiggy.gif] "A man must stand in the eyes of fear and march on to lead those who follow him to victory. Through these battles, a man will build himself a home, a place of refuge and happiness for those he cares about." - Grub
09-01-2013, 11:24 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2022, 01:02 AM by Fearless Community.
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(09-01-2013, 10:30 PM)Grub Wrote: Starting a new post since there is too much bold text now.
None of these chats show your situation. I'll even use a picture to show one of the exact points. Since clearly you didn't tell the selected staff the whole situation.
Staff online at the time of my round of questions, not a pre-designated list of people who I ask to guarantee good results
The question was entirely the situation i was in, a 1v1 situation where both parties were armed since the start, with more people showing up overtime, leading to a mexican standoff type affair where neither side could logicly make a move without the other noticeing, and according to killjoy, would need to be talked down to pass by peacefully, which is what I was attempting
You were exactly like that using your "PDA". So next time you contact the staff, please include the full situation because clearly you missed half of it on purpose for your own personal gain.
I cite the above bold
After multiple times the SRU and the cop were yelling for roughly a couple of minutes, the server was under attack. This of course does not excuse your action of ignoring the weapons during that time when you were contacting the President via PDA.
Who said i was ignoreing them? I was fully aware they had their weapons, but I also know full well what they are capable of, and police procedure, in an IC standpoint i know full well they wont shoot me unless i begin to act hostile towards them, so long as i stayed calm the situation would not baloon out of control
Actually Blackdog, I'd like to point out another fact here.
-You changed the situation to every admin you contacted this about.
It is the same question with a few additions each time to make it a more clear question, adding more to each question i ask as i ask down the list of staff online at the time is not changing the situation its adding more to make sure each successive question contains more information for the person to take into account, i did not list the chat logs in order of apperance
-In fact, you didn't even list all the admins opinions either. You left every one that didn't agree with you.
You mind explaining yourself?
You mean adman?
Spoiler :
12:38 AM - BlackDog: Hey adman, mind if i ask a question to clarify somthing on fl?
12:38 AM - [FL] Adman: Sure, go ahead.
12:39 AM - BlackDog: if two people are armed and faceing eachother, fearRP dosnt apply in terms of ordering the person around as both are armed, but if one side starts to get more people, it becomes a mexican standoff type affair, is it still fearRP even though both sides are armed and were armed since the start of the situation?
12:41 AM - [FL] Adman: I suppose it is always better to air on the side of caution and also depending on simply how much you outnumber the other side. If you're in a scenario of 3 v 1, it seems pretty clear that the 1 would be outmatched and should really stand down. But if it is say 6 v 5 or some other scenario where one side only outnumbers the other by a very small amount, then I don't think you can really apply FearRP. I think I remember Killjoy stating it somewhere as someone asked a similar question, I'll try and find it.
12:41 AM - BlackDog: Alright, im asking around and the overall opinino seems to lean towards "If both sides are armed, and were armed since the begining of the incident, fearRP does not apply as both would not be afraid of the other"
12:43 AM - [FL] Adman: That makes sense, but I'd always say that if you were ridiculously outnumbered you would probably begin to feel the strain. i.e 3v1, 6v1
12:46 AM - BlackDog: Alright, thanks, mostl checking around since grub issued a 3 day on me for fearRP when there were 1 police and 2 SRU, in a non combative situation, tryingto get clarification on whether it reallyt was fearRP, so far its leaning towards not, since my character was armed himself with an assault rifle, body armored, but was tryingto talk the situation down, since in a mexican standoff if one person trys somthing somones goingto die on both sides
12:47 AM - [FL] Adman: Ah ok, I'm still trying to find something Killjoy said because I could have sworn I remember reading it
12:47 AM - BlackDog: Alright, i think im going to ask him clarification on this to
and Aviator:
Spoiler :
12:52 AM - BlackDog: Hey aviator, you available for a question to clarify somthing on FL?
12:53 AM - [FL] Aviator: Yeah.
12:53 AM - BlackDog: if two people are armed and faceing eachother, fearRP dosnt apply in terms of ordering the person around as both are armed, but if one side starts to get more people, it becomes a mexican standoff type affair, is it still fearRP even though both sides are armed and were armed since the start of the situation?
12:56 AM - [FL] Aviator: What I think about this is, if it is 1vs1 and in the circumstance you said, No FearRP applies. If you begin to get outnumbered I think that FearRP should be abided. Lets say it is 5 vs 1, the person should put down their weapon and abide FearRP. If it is lets say, 2 vs 1 or 3 vs 2, I think FearRP shouldn't apply. It is a bit of a hard situation to judge and it can get complicated.
12:57 AM - [FL] Aviator: Also I would say if you are fully surrounded and you are in the middle, you should abide FearRP.
1:00 AM - BlackDog: What if the situation isnt hostile,involves the police and you yourself are trying to talk the situation down, by either contacting the president or the mans superior. Im mostly checking since grub issued a ban on me for this kind of situation today after i saved a cop who then tried to arrest me, whole time i have a weapon out to keep them at bay while i try to get the whole thing sorted
1:03 AM - [FL] Aviator: So a non-hostile situation, I wouldn't say FearRP should apply. If you had you weapon out from the beginning and were joined by other government forces after. If you tried to passively sort it out by introducing the President or high-command.
1:04 AM - [FL] Aviator: Obviously I wasn't there at the time, so I can't give an accurate say in this, but if you were to run from all of them or begin shooting them all you would be breaking FearRP.
1:04 AM - BlackDog: Alright, just checken around on peoples thoughts
Who both agree its not a fearRP situation and more of a grey area situation.
Their chat logs were about as long as KJs so i left them out, since i figured i had made my point with people from all areas of FL staff agreeing this was not a fearRP situation
Is there anything else you wish to add or accuse me of, because i cant see the private admin posts in this topic and am finding it a little unfair that i cannot contest what may be being said and defend myself from them.
09-02-2013, 01:34 AM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2022, 01:02 AM by Fearless Community.
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Let's leave behind all the law and copper speak, because I doubt all of you are coppers and lawyers so it's pointless to base RP on exactly what they would've done. Let's look at whether or not it's a breach of fearRP. imo it's impossible to tell. If both sides are armed both are going to be extremely wary of the other, and both sides, even if the numbers aren't even, definitely have the capability of completely wiping out the other side. This is too much of a grey area to judge whether or not its a breach of fearRP. If both sides are armed, fearRP should not apply in this situation. We can't just suddenly say "oh its not fearRP if its 2v1 but if its 3v1 it definitely is" because it's such an arbitrary decision.
09-02-2013, 10:15 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2022, 01:02 AM by Fearless Community.
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(09-02-2013, 01:34 AM)Faustie Wrote: Let's leave behind all the law and copper speak, because I doubt all of you are coppers and lawyers so it's pointless to base RP on exactly what they would've done. Let's look at whether or not it's a breach of fearRP. imo it's impossible to tell. If both sides are armed both are going to be extremely wary of the other, and both sides, even if the numbers aren't even, definitely have the capability of completely wiping out the other side. This is too much of a grey area to judge whether or not its a breach of fearRP. If both sides are armed, fearRP should not apply in this situation. We can't just suddenly say "oh its not fearRP if its 2v1 but if its 3v1 it definitely is" because it's such an arbitrary decision.
Thank you, one of the points ive been trying to make as to why this was not a fearRP situation.
The ban itself has 3-4hrs remaining, but I would still like this removed from my record as I had not broken fearRP
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