2nd Amendment

[Joey Skylynx]

The 2nd Amendment was placed down as a safe guard of the other amendments. The belief at the time was that during a national crisis[invasion/corrupt government/tyrannical state militia] that the American People would be able to fend for themselves to protect the other first nine amendments of the United States Constitution.
The way the 2nd Amendment was worded makes it very broad-spectrum and doesn't only include the right to bear firearms, but also the right to bear arms of any sort.

-deterring tyrannical government;
-repelling invasion;
-suppressing insurrection;
-facilitating a natural right of self-defense;
-participating in law enforcement;
-enabling the people to organize a militia system.

In the cases of United States v. Miller in 1939, the Supreme Court upheld that organized militas are legally obligated to own military-type firearms under the grounds of protecting the homefront.
What's hilarious about that case though is that it upheld that a 12 gauge with a shortened barrel can not be deemed a 'military weapon' yet throughout WW1 and WW2 several soldiers would cut down their shotguns for close-quarters combat. Not to mention...
District of Columbia v. Heller in 2008, stated the following[which goes against US v Miller,

(1) The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.

(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.

(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.

© The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment. Pp. 28–30.

(d) The Second Amendment’s drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms. Pp. 30–32.

(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the late 19th century also supports the Court’s conclusion. Pp. 32–47.

(f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54.

(2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.

(3) The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement. Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64.

If you want my opinion on any of this...
Repeal NFA 34, Repeal most of GCA 68, and Repeal most of FOPA 84.

[Aoixification]

Wikipedia, FUCK YEAH. I kid Joey =P

[RockHunter]

Mexico has strict laws when it comes to private citizens owning firearms, how is that working out for them?

Britain and Germany have between them, three of the worst massacres that took place in a school.

Dunblane, Winnenden and Erfurt.

Both Britain and Germany have strict 'gun control' legislation.

It is also worth pointing out that Britain is the most violent country within Europe, but hey we've got gun control!

---

Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun - Mao Zedong

I never did get why a man can own a military grade .50 sniper rifle, with armor pierceing rounds down there.

Just seems like your asking for trouble putting that kind of weaponry into the hands normal people

You have to pass a background check before you can get your hands on it. Being normal is not a crime.

[Dylan]

Snip

I love it when people use Mexico as a demonstration of how "herp gun laws dont help, herp", it's like using the Soviet Union or Cuba as examples of how Communism always fails. Newsflash: Mexico isn't exactly a pure country, in case you didn't know, people are poor there, and cops are prone to taking bribes. That is something you should consider before going "Mexico's gun law is shit herherher", yes, their gun law doesn't affect very much, but neither does their drug law or any other law for that matter.

USA has a bigger homicide rate than the UK does, derp. And in fact, a bigger homicide rate than most of the european countries. Only countries that have a higher homicide rate than the USA are countries that have severe problems (poverty for example). Funny, how USA is head-to-head with the worst offenders out there, even Mexico.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...icide_rate

[RockHunter]

Snip

I love it when people use Mexico as a demonstration of how "herp gun laws dont help, herp", it's like using the Soviet Union or Cuba as examples of how Communism always fails. Newsflash: Mexico isn't exactly a pure country, in case you didn't know, people are poor there, and cops are prone to taking bribes.

I'm glad I've made your day. Yes, I've heard that a lot about the USSR and Cuba not being examples of Communism. Just like i've been told that Socialism hasn't been given a real chance.

That is something you should consider before going "Mexico's gun law is shit herherher", yes, their gun law doesn't affect very much, but neither does their drug law or any other law for that matter.

I never said their gun laws are shit. If you're going to be so blase with the truth, at least put a disclaimer. I wouldn't want some one to confuse your drivel with my point of view. *

My point being that Mexico has strict gun laws and is in a world of hurt, it hasn't helped them one bit. I would also point out that the Obama administration hasn't helped the situation by selling military grade weapons to the Mexican Cartels under the guise of 'Operation Fast & Furious' , in an attempt to subvert the 2nd Amendment. People have died from a result of F&F , including Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry (google him) and countless Mexicans butchered.

You don't see the irony here? Mexico is the perfect example of a country that has strict gun laws, yet the criminals don't adhere to them and who is stuck in the middle? The average Mexican, that is who.

I'm not suggesting you arm every peasant like something out of the Magnificent Seven, I am suggesting you give them the choice.

USA has a bigger homicide rate than the UK does, derp. And in fact, a bigger homicide rate than most of the european countries. Only countries that have a higher homicide rate than the USA are countries that have severe problems (poverty for example). Funny, how USA is head-to-head with the worst offenders out there, even Mexico.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...icide_rate

I'll be honest and say I didn't know the definition of 'derp' but having looked it up I'm beginning to realize you are being rather 'snarky' in your response.
*Hence why I referred to your "Mexico's gun law is shit herherher" as drivel.

Of course America has a bigger homicide rate than the UK. I was pointing out that two countries within the EU with the strictest gun control, were home to some of the deadliest massacres in recent history and that Britain is still the most violent country within the EU. I wonder how far Germany is down the line from that.

Ironically the 2nd amendment stems from Magna Carta, except we were stating that citizens could not be prevented from owning or purchasing weapons based on their religious beliefs, by the Monarchy. Perhaps if it had been reviewed and revised at a later date, Britain might have a 2nd amendment right instead of the clusterfuck we have today.

[Dylan]

Snip

Mexico is by far the "perfect country" to see if gun-laws work, I can't see how you actually believe that. Mexico has laws against homicide, drugs, stealing etc. but those don't do much of an impact, do they? Does that mean that anti-drug laws should be abolished? Does that warrant a legalization of murder? I think not.

And socialism has been given a real chance, look at European countries, they are filled with socialist parties, in Denmark, a socialist party is actually in charge (of course it hasn't been given a real chance in the USA, because of the immense amount of propaganda still left in the heads of middle-aged to old people).

School shootings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shoo..._shootings
Notice how USA has about as many school shootings as the rest of the world combined? Granted, Russia is far in the lead of casualties with 385 from the Beslan school shooting, but my point still stands.
Another thing "Britain" is not a country, and bear in mind that In Britain, there is right now a battle going on between the two different Irelands (and the IRA is a part of the UK), unless you were talking about "Great Britain".

Also, where do you get your statistics from? FBI.GOV says that an estimated 1,417,745 violent crimes were committed in the US in 2006, whereas the UK has fallen wildly in violent crimes from 1995 (a time where the battle between the IRA and the loyalists was a big deal) down to about 500.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Violen...o-2007.png
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offense...index.html

Not only that, but in 2006 67.9 percent of all of the US's recorded murders was by firearm.

An addendum as well: Funfact! Did you know that the IRA (northern Ireland) gets some of it's guns by trades with criminal organizations from the US?

[Joey Skylynx]

[Image: downloader.php?file=TFCgU.png]
I thought I would just post that....

[Dylan]

Snip

That is hilarious!

[Dylan]

I have more to add, this is generally against all the "second amendement!111!!!!" arguments:

The 2nd Amendement technically states that you are allowed a gun to make sure the states are free. Howeveeeer:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
This line hints at it might be only people in well-regulated militias, that are allowed to carry weapons.

Also: A lot of Americans act as if the constitution is some holy book, that may never be altered (which it hasn't), the argument "IT'S IN THE CONSTITUTION" comes up in so many discussions about American politics it's madness. Congratulations, you have a constitution that hasnt been altered for over 200 years, are you supposed to be proud about tradition, or shameful that your standards haven't changed since 1776? The Constitution needs to be changed once in a while, if you won't listen to me (which you won't) then take it from Mr. Thomas Jefferson:
"Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right."
Every twenty years.. Huh.. That is.. 10 constitutional re-writings you have missed? Actually even more, but I am too lazy to do the math.

[Joey Skylynx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7ldL1...detailpage
TJ was also reknown for stating,
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."
and this
"Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state."


Personally I'll stick with my crazed lunatic quotes from George S Patton:
"It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived."
"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results."

or my personal favorite...
"We herd sheep, we drive cattle, we lead people. Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way."