The Pulse: Community Catch Up | 2WC 4 Sept

[H. Waters]

Fair play lads, credit to you all for the dedication and hard work.

[konsta]

Cool UI and brand development guys, just a question do y’all have a strategy for generating players? For who is this UI meant for? Because for the older players it won’t really matter to us, I’m in touch with some of the old guys and what we all have in common is we have a busy and different lifestyle than what we had. We got families, careers, small business, military, volunteering, etc. We might hop on once or twice a week every now and then but what’s gonna be done for bringing new players? How are you gonna attract them and retain them without a running server?

[Doctor Internet]

Cool UI and brand development guys, just a question do y’all have a strategy for generating players? For who  is this UI meant for? Because for the older players it won’t really matter to us, I’m in touch with some of the old guys and what we all have in common is we have a busy and different lifestyle than what we had. We got families, careers, small business, military, volunteering, etc. We might hop on once or twice a week every now and then but what’s gonna be done for bringing new players? How are you gonna attract them and retain them without a running server?

So, I feel like a lot of this was covered in the Future of FL thread, but the primary part which is relevant here is reducing the learning curve. At the moment, for new players, joining FL has the learning curve of a overhanging cliff. Multiple sets of systems, (/commands, !commands, C menu, context click, fists, F1, F2, F3), all of which do different things, some overlapping. Having good quality guides which can teach key systems can help reduce that cognative load. It's not a replacement for having a single primary self-explanitory system, which we're doing with the interaction system, but it reduces the cognative load for more complex systems, such as meth or contraband.

There's also other ways we're working on this, such as with the rule crap-removal™️, where we don't need paragraphs of prose to make basic rules clear. Nobody wants to join a server and be bombarded with a 17 page document of rules.

Hopefully this explains how the guide panel ties into this, and the original thread explains other parts in more detail, cheers.

[konsta]

Cool UI and brand development guys, just a question do y’all have a strategy for generating players? For who  is this UI meant for? Because for the older players it won’t really matter to us, I’m in touch with some of the old guys and what we all have in common is we have a busy and different lifestyle than what we had. We got families, careers, small business, military, volunteering, etc. We might hop on once or twice a week every now and then but what’s gonna be done for bringing new players? How are you gonna attract them and retain them without a running server?

So, I feel like a lot of this was covered in the Future of FL thread, but the primary part which is relevant here is reducing the learning curve. At the moment, for new players, joining FL has the learning curve of a overhanging cliff. Multiple sets of systems, (/commands, !commands, C menu, context click, fists, F1, F2, F3), all of which do different things, some overlapping. Having good quality guides which can teach key systems can help reduce that cognative load. It's not a replacement for having a single primary self-explanitory system, which we're doing with the interaction system, but it reduces the cognative load for more complex systems, such as meth or contraband.

There's also other ways we're working on this, such as with the rule crap-removal™️, where we don't need paragraphs of prose to make basic rules clear. Nobody wants to join a server and be bombarded with a 17 page document of rules.

Hopefully this explains how the guide panel ties into this, and the original thread explains other parts in more detail, cheers.

TLDR Below

I'm sorry for being blunt but I totally forgot about that thread as it was posted on November 26, 2022. We're now about to touch October 2023. It's been almost a year, without a server bringing any new players.

Personally, to me this year is the most transformative and overwhelming period of my life. Things that I never thought would happen or I'd do, happened, and I did. I rarely touch any video games anymore, and when I do it's only for a couple of hours once every couple of weeks and that gets boring fast. That will apply the same for FL if I ever hop on. After an invitiation from a friend I'd just dip after a few hours, not to be seen for sometime.

I'm just one guy right? Who cares. But think of all the others, going through a similar pace, that would have otherwise taken some time from their lives aside and spend it into FL. That just doesn't happen because there's no server to play anymore. Because of that, now it's just about to be a forgotten phase of our lives. I remember FL only when someone send something in an old snapchat group, or I talk to Prosto or meet up with him somewhere in Kyiv every now and then. 

The only time you guys post anything after a gap of inactivity since I heard there was a hype of FL coming back in early May, it's about a UI for a server that doesn't have a player base for almost a year. Update after update, same applausing comments from the same people, it's the same nonsense pattern which doesn't take a genius to see that. I browse the forums once in a very long time and I can see what's going on by reading some old announcements.

Where are your priorities man? I appreciate the passion and all but the reasoning behind your response just doesn't seem very logical considering we all went through the same rules, the same / commands which can be found in most gamemodes and servers in case you forgot, and the same learning curve. These are non sense.

These solutions aren't solving any problems, the problem is you got no player base. There's no server to generate new leads. An overwhelming amount of the old members forgot about FL and moved on to live, because we're old after all, and even if you run the servers back up, we might hop in just for the old days sake for a few days after someone invites us to play with them, and that's it we dip out because of our own priorities in life. Not to mention there are short videos all over TikTok and Youtube of the upcoming S&Box which apparently releases later this year on fall, and it doesn't use Lua, but C#. How many players will switch from Gmod to S&Box for good is unknown, but I'm 100% sure that in the very beginning it will be noticable provided if there's enough public servers to host players, and FL is definitely not gonna be among those public servers because you cannot transfer this gamemode running on an old engine coded with Lua to Source 2 that reads C#. 

I just don't see the point of keeping the servers closed. FL already went through a UI change before, an inventory rehaul, remap of the rules, and so many other changes that's far more demanding. I don't recall these things requiring the server being switched off for almost a year, I recall them being down for 30 minutes for implementation and switched back on for deployment.

The only thing I can conclude from all of this, and I can totally understand, is you guys are building your portfolio. I can respect the hustle but I don't respect how you guys are doing this because I noticed there are some sad people that have nothing going on in their lives in this community, and they're just waiting for something that's literally dead for a year to come back and think everything will go back to normal.

Time is money, I thought a business advisor of a Gmod server that legally ran on donations would know that. Instead, you have a crippling community without a server for almost a year, with its value dipping like it's a Chinese penny stock. If a company doesn't make any money and it has no clients who do you think is gonna buy it? They might be developing some new technology or have a new patent but is it really worth $300 million when it's really worth $900K just in assets and in cash? This concept applies the same for this community that used to run on donations, all that extra coding, scripts, and content might add a few dollars for the sale but you're still gonna sell it on a loss. An idea isn't worth anything if it's doesn't start making any money.



TLDR
Your job is to attract new players and retain them, not to make FL absent and come back thinking people who were attached to you and missed your presence will come back. That works with women with daddy issues in trauma bonds, not with grown a** men with lives. That's just a bad idea and toxic, there is no return on investment in this.

[Haarek]

You would do better and save more time if you just reverted FL to what it was back in 2011.

[Pollux]

-snip-

I do think you're missing the point completely. This isn't a business nor will it be treated like one. We don't care about making anything from this, server costs being covered is nice but not a requirement. FL will also not be "sold" or anything like that, because I don't care about running FL like a business or trying to make money. If what we're trying doesn't work, we've proven FL's CityRP as a concept is no longer viable and will move on to new things. If it works, then we'll keep it going for as long as it can. This is ultimately a passion project for myself and others, something it always should've been.

It's really common for many to ask what exactly will bring players back, and the answer to that is there isn't anything like that. If it was that easy FL wouldn't have ever died. Everyone is going to have their own different ideas and none of which are likely to directly do much. Some want FL to not change at all or go back, even though we've proven this isn't going to work. Most want drastic change, but mostly without any ideas on exactly what or how. There isn't any single or even multiple things that will "bring players", because that just isn't how it works. You make something because it is fun and fits in well, that helps to "bring players" but it isn't a guarantee either. FL hasn't really followed this well, as a result there's a bunch of things which just aren't fun or don't fit. This isn't good for bringing in players, and many of these things can be attributed to the slow death it has had.

With that said, our current direction is obvious. We're changing a lot, pretty much anything that isn't fun or is stupid should change in some way. The result is going to be a significantly different gamemode and experience. This will disappoint some, however, the hard truth is if you wanted nothing to change you should've played before we were forced to adapt. FL died quite naturally due to stagnation, and the solution to that is rip it all apart to make it both better and different. 

It has definitely taken significantly longer than any of us wanted to make progress which is unfortunate but far from a massive issue. We've had the community pulse to keep everyone up to date, regardless of how much we get done, every two weeks. When a lot gets done at once, we've have a dev blog as we did earlier this year. Not too sure why you think this is the first time we've posted anything in a year, when that simply isn't true. When the time comes we'll focus on making sure we have the best chance at a successful relaunch. This doesn't just involve existing players as we do recognise many have moved on to other things. We're trying to make something new, exciting and most importantly sustainable for a long time. This is the only thing we haven't tried yet, so it is worth doing so.

In relation to S&box and such, we're very aware of what it is and what it isn't as we've had access to it for over two years now. It isn't Garry's Mod because it doesn't want to be anything like Garry's Mod, it is trying to be more of a game engine similar to Unity or Unreal Engine. S&box is definitely quite cool and I've really enjoyed messing around with it, however, it is important to recognise that "gmod RP" as a whole doesn't work there (this is a good thing, just important to recognise) because it just isn't anything like Gmod. It is way closer to Roblox than it is to Gmod, which isn't a bad thing, but it is important to recognise. There also isn't much point in committing to any large project with it anyway, as it still has a year or even two to go with major breaking changes in-between. It definitely isn't close to release, even next year is debatable. If you'd like to read more about this, see here: https://sbox.facepunch.com/news/retooling

You would do better and save more time if you just reverted FL to what it was back in 2011.

No, reverting for nostalgia has already been tried and resulted in almost nothing. The truth is you or anyone else doesn't miss FL because of its gamemode or similar back in the day, you miss being young with nothing better to do than play on the servers all day long. Reverting back to the old gamemode doesn't bring that feeling back, nothing ever will. Nostalgia can definitely be very strong, none of it is over the gamemode though. We're not going to make the same mistake and try cater to nostalgia again. To be completely blunt, those who wanted FL to never change should've played when they had the chance. We've only ever made major changes because we were forced to do so in order to keep FL going. Things change and we have to adapt to those changes, otherwise it slowly dies off as we've seen.

For better or worse, things will change significantly. Some people will hate it while others will like it, that's normal and expected. We're just going to roll with what makes the most sense to us and we'll see what happens from there. Not everything will be perfect, but most of it should be positive as we do have a very experienced team.

---

tl;dr: We're making major changes as we've already tried everything else, these major changes are aimed at making the gamemode more enjoyable and sustainable. This isn't a business, it is just a passion project. We're working on FL as it is fun to do so and we look forward to be being able to share our work with everyone. We genuinely believe what we're working will result in one of the best gmod RP experiences around and the best the gamemode can possibly be. This doesn't guarantee success, but we'll try make it work.

[Haarek]

You would do better and save more time if you just reverted FL to what it was back in 2011.

No, reverting for nostalgia has already been tried and resulted in almost nothing. The truth is you or anyone else doesn't miss FL because of its gamemode or similar back in the day, you miss being young with nothing better to do than play on the servers all day long. Reverting back to the old gamemode doesn't bring that feeling back, nothing ever will. Nostalgia can definitely be very strong, none of it is over the gamemode though. We're not going to make the same mistake and try cater to nostalgia again. To be completely blunt, those who wanted FL to never change should've played when they had the chance. We've only ever made major changes because we were forced to do so in order to keep FL going. Things change and we have to adapt to those changes, otherwise it slowly dies off as we've seen.

Thought I commend your deduction it simply is not true. Of course I miss being young - and I miss being on the server all day long - but that is not why I fell in love with FL. Before I joined FL I already had a 1000 hours on DarkRP servers, if my sole reason for playing FL was because I was young and had nothing better to do - I would've simply stayed on darkRP.

The reason FL was enticing back then is because it had an economy and marketplace that let you gradually progress. It gave you a serious reason to come back and a reason to grind, a reason to make money, and the police and other people were constantly trying to raid you. It was challenging.

This completely changed a while ago with the addition of more ways to make money. I have voiced my concern several times over the years but it has always fallen on deaf ears. And I would say the start of this dumbfound progression that started to destroy the economy was the mining update.

I even wrote about this several times on the forum - I even made documents underlining the issue.
You can read those concerns here: https://imgur.com/a/PmHvaz1

The reason I say it is better to just revert completely to 2011, is because the likelihood of fixing problems like this with you as the leading director of this yacht is like expecting a spoiled kid to willingly share his toys—it's improbable and against the nature of the situation.

[Pollux]

You would do better and save more time if you just reverted FL to what it was back in 2011.

No, reverting for nostalgia has already been tried and resulted in almost nothing. The truth is you or anyone else doesn't miss FL because of its gamemode or similar back in the day, you miss being young with nothing better to do than play on the servers all day long. Reverting back to the old gamemode doesn't bring that feeling back, nothing ever will. Nostalgia can definitely be very strong, none of it is over the gamemode though. We're not going to make the same mistake and try cater to nostalgia again. To be completely blunt, those who wanted FL to never change should've played when they had the chance. We've only ever made major changes because we were forced to do so in order to keep FL going. Things change and we have to adapt to those changes, otherwise it slowly dies off as we've seen.

Thought I commend your deduction it simply is not true. Of course I miss being young - and I miss being on the server all day long - but that is not why I fell in love with FL. Before I joined FL I already had a 1000 hours on DarkRP servers, if my sole reason for playing FL was because I was young and had nothing better to do - I would've simply stayed on darkRP.

The reason FL was enticing back then is because it had an economy and marketplace that let you gradually progress. It gave you a serious reason to come back and a reason to grind, a reason to make money, and the police and other people were constantly trying to raid you. It was challenging.

This completely changed a while ago with the addition of more ways to make money. I have voiced my concern several times over the years but it has always fallen on deaf ears. And I would say the start of this dumbfound progression that started to destroy the economy was the mining update.

I even wrote about this several times on the forum - I even made documents underlining the issue.
You can read those concerns here: https://imgur.com/a/PmHvaz1

The reason I say it is better to just revert completely to 2011, is because the likelihood of fixing problems like this with you as the leading director of this yacht is like expecting a spoiled kid to willingly share his toys—it's improbable and against the nature of the situation.

You're looking at the past with some rose-tinted glasses. I don't think there is much I can say if you believe FL in 2011 had a good economy and marketplace, that just isn't true but there also isn't any point in arguing about it. I saw your document during the economy overhaul and it ignores that not everyone wants to grind for money, some players would rather just roleplay with money being a secondary thing. Punishing those players removes any remaining "RP" aspect of FL, something which has been key to its success in the past. Dynamic economy was introduced to punish those who were only "min-max grinding" but did not go far enough to balance it effectively. Another issue with just making everything earn less money is that it ignores that most money-making methods aren't that much fun on FL. There really isn't a single thing FL had in the past that we'd want today, all changes were done with good reason and simply reverting ignores why we had to make those changes in the first place. If we didn't change anything, FL would've died long ago. FL never really had any long-term vision or plan beyond maintaining it, we've always only reacted to whatever is going on at the time and that resulted in us being unable to keep up

We're not trying to make any particular person "happy" or just going with whatever the most popular opinion. We only care about making changes that prioritise FLs sustainability and modernise key features as this lets us compete better in an extremely contested space. Everything we have planned is a result of experienced players figuring out what is wrong with our current approach and what we can change to improve. Some players, such as yourself, won't like the changes we're making. It's definitely interesting to have some players say we changed FL too much, while others say we didn't change enough. If anything it shows just how split the player base can be, and how impossible it is to try make everyone happy or even reach a compromise. We've already tried reverting things back, the only thing left is to go the other way.

If not reverting because you want to play on the old gamemode makes me a "spoiled kid", even though I'm not even the "leading director" as you claim (the management team leads FL, not just me), then so be it. Anyone who just wants a nostalgic experience is going to be extremely disappointed, I apologise but the past needs to stay in the past. Things have come a long way since 2011, it is much more productive to focus on the future than continue to argue about the past. While I appreciate you voicing your opinion, there isn't any compromise that can be made to make everyone happy.

EDIT: On a side note, there also won't be a pulse this week as we're trying to see if we can do something else instead.

[Haarek]

Let me just say, that I am very grateful that you are engaging in discussion.
And that I highly respect that you are still working on the game mode.

You're looking at the past with some rose-tinted glasses.

Oh, please forgive me. But it was much better back then.

I saw your document during the economy overhaul and it ignores that not everyone wants to grind for money, some players would rather just roleplay with money being a secondary thing. Punishing those players removes any remaining "RP" aspect of FL, something which has been key to its success in the past.

You cannot expect a player base to grow from just passiveRP. Remember, the cops and criminal dynamic plays a huge part of the economy and general game mode. All vendors, even the chef, sells stuff that will benefit criminal activity. It's the main incentive for people wanting to buy things.

Point is, if you want a lot of stores and RP in the city, you need a lot of people doing criminal role-play, so that the merchants have something to sell. The whole game mode is built around aggressive RP!

Not everyone wants to grind for money and raid, you are correct, however for the vast majority this is what makes the game mode enjoyable. You have to cater to the majority, Pollux.

Punishing those players removes any remaining "RP" aspect of FL, something which has been key to its success in the past

This is not true. There are plenty of role-play that can be done yet still in this scenario, and nobody is being punished because of it. The success of FL´s passive role-play has been role-play despite of this aggressive environment. People got a reputation for being a passive role-player - and that was respectable. You don't get the same recognition if the aggressive element of the server is weak or non existent.

I apologise but the past needs to stay in the past. Things have come a long way since 2011

Except things haven't come a long way. The core of the game mode and the meta is still the same. We are so focused on trying to make everything better, that we are not focused enough on what actually works.
And in 2011 things worked. They don't anymore, sorry. Too many baseless changes and flawed updates. One of the best places to start would be the changes to the economy.

[Link]

I apologise but the past needs to stay in the past. Things have come a long way since 2011

Except things haven't come a long way. The core of the game mode and the meta is still the same. We are so focused on trying to make everything better, that we are not focused enough on what actually works.
And in 2011 things worked. They don't anymore, sorry. Too many baseless changes and flawed updates. One of the best places to start would be the changes to the economy.

Hey, sorry, I haven't been following the whole conversation, but one thing I always talk about when FL comes up is this idea of the meta.

I think that's one of the biggest problems you guys are facing.

From 2016 and before, I remember there being a good variety of passive and agg rp at any one time with a 'let's get on and RP' mentality. Post that period, I feel that every year the server moved closer towards being a chatroom in a multiplayer game: less clans, no government, no shops, nothing ambitious.

With the prior meta, things almost run themselves, as everything was super player driven. But as soon as that was out of the mainstream, the USP of the gamemode started to get lost, and you were left with something that wasn't very special.

So, I think the meta did 100% change, and they're absolutely right to make changes if they'll satisfy current wants.