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05-05-2023, 09:45 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-05-2023, 10:42 PM by Pollux. Edited 1 time in total.)
I was going to reply with yet another wall of text, but I realise we've already done that several times already and we've probably covered everything at least twice. So here's another, different wall of text about toxicity:
I realise there's a bit of a cycle here, which has actually been here for years. Those who care will read the responses, but those actually being toxic won't and it'll likely lead to this post being closed as has happened a few times now in different threads. The forums have become a mess I realise that it's our fault for tolerating it. A few have asked me why we even allow it to keep happening, and that's a good question. Let's go over this:
What do we gain from such players?
Positives:
The worst part is those who are being toxic don't even want to play. Conn proved this by making every single change requested by them, and none of them joined. It only lasted a few hours: https://fearlessrp.net/showthread.php?tid=100256
So lets think about it, if you owned a community and had some people who:
a) Don't want to ever play, no matter what you do or change
b) Stop actual players from wanting to be here by being toxic
c) Result in your community being known for toxic players
d) Make those actually trying question why they're even bothering
What would you do? I think if any of you were in my position, you would've gotten rid of them ages ago. I'm being fully transparent about it here because it's something we really don't take lightly, and it's why we haven't done anything about it till now. Like actually, why would anyone want to stay in a community that seems this toxic if you were just a regular player? If you think we're making a big mistake, I'd love to hear why. Let me know if I'm missing something here. We've banned a few people for this before, so this isn't a random thing we're deciding to enforce out of nowhere.
This is really something we should've tackled years ago, and it's probably a big reason why we're even in this situation today, as this constant cycle isn't healthy. All we've been doing is amplifying toxicity. I want to be clear I'm not talking about almost all of you. I welcome criticism and I've always responded to it, as seen both here and elsewhere. I encourage you all to tell us if we're doing something wrong as I don't want this to just be an echo chamber. I'm only referring to who attack anyone who still cares and then continue to argue in bad faith even after we respond. Those who blatantly lie about anything just to further their point and seem correct. It doesn't matter what we respond with. It doesn't matter if we show evidence showing it's not true. They won't read it, they'll just maintain you're definitely wrong and ask a few friends to back them up. So why should we bother even trying to respond to that? We just end up repeating ourselves constantly and make less progress to actually getting things done, which sucks for everyone as I'm sure it's all many of you want us to do - make more progress (which we have, as these small posts show!).
For the majority who care, I'm sorry the forums are like this and I'm sorry that we've been slow at getting things done. In the end it's our fault for not dealing with it sooner. I can't do anything about how slow things have been up to this point apart from apologise. It's true that we were meant to be done by now, we're not because we didn't plan properly. I've changed how inventory works twice now and it'll be a three times before it's actually done. I could've done it once and left it at that, but half-doing things is why FL is currently dead and why the attempt last summer failed. There's definitely a middle ground though, and I really hope we can finish everything we wanted before the summer where FL usually sees its peak. We wouldn't have changed over 20,000 lines of code in the last month or so if we didn't care or didn't want to try. For context, that's probably more than there has been in the past few years. It does suck to then have to come onto the forums and see blatant lies about what we're doing, it makes everyone consider why they're even bothering and that's not okay.
We'll keep having these progress reports every two weeks, we'll try find something so we can actually make use of the teasers channel at some point and once inventory is done the dev blog will go up. If you have any questions you can ping or DM me on discord to ask. I've had nice conversations with some of you, it's just a shame about all the noise on the forums. I'll leave this thread open too, but the forums isn't great for actual conversations.
tl;dr: Forums are a mess, I'm sorry, we're cleaning it up. If you think we're taking the wrong approach, let us know why. Things have been slow, my fault for not planning properly and we're trying to make up for it. I can't change what has happened so far, all I can do is keep trying. Join discord, it's better. Ping or DM me if you have any questions, I always answer them. I'll leave this thread open.
I realise there's a bit of a cycle here, which has actually been here for years. Those who care will read the responses, but those actually being toxic won't and it'll likely lead to this post being closed as has happened a few times now in different threads. The forums have become a mess I realise that it's our fault for tolerating it. A few have asked me why we even allow it to keep happening, and that's a good question. Let's go over this:
What do we gain from such players?
Positives:
- More activity on the forums, drama has always been good for FLs forum activity
- The forums become a toxic mess
- Actual players don't want to post, as it's a toxic mess
- The community looks like it's only filled with toxic people saying the server is dead and there's no hope
- Anyone who actually cares is demotivated from toxicity, so they stop caring
The worst part is those who are being toxic don't even want to play. Conn proved this by making every single change requested by them, and none of them joined. It only lasted a few hours: https://fearlessrp.net/showthread.php?tid=100256
So lets think about it, if you owned a community and had some people who:
a) Don't want to ever play, no matter what you do or change
b) Stop actual players from wanting to be here by being toxic
c) Result in your community being known for toxic players
d) Make those actually trying question why they're even bothering
What would you do? I think if any of you were in my position, you would've gotten rid of them ages ago. I'm being fully transparent about it here because it's something we really don't take lightly, and it's why we haven't done anything about it till now. Like actually, why would anyone want to stay in a community that seems this toxic if you were just a regular player? If you think we're making a big mistake, I'd love to hear why. Let me know if I'm missing something here. We've banned a few people for this before, so this isn't a random thing we're deciding to enforce out of nowhere.
This is really something we should've tackled years ago, and it's probably a big reason why we're even in this situation today, as this constant cycle isn't healthy. All we've been doing is amplifying toxicity. I want to be clear I'm not talking about almost all of you. I welcome criticism and I've always responded to it, as seen both here and elsewhere. I encourage you all to tell us if we're doing something wrong as I don't want this to just be an echo chamber. I'm only referring to who attack anyone who still cares and then continue to argue in bad faith even after we respond. Those who blatantly lie about anything just to further their point and seem correct. It doesn't matter what we respond with. It doesn't matter if we show evidence showing it's not true. They won't read it, they'll just maintain you're definitely wrong and ask a few friends to back them up. So why should we bother even trying to respond to that? We just end up repeating ourselves constantly and make less progress to actually getting things done, which sucks for everyone as I'm sure it's all many of you want us to do - make more progress (which we have, as these small posts show!).
For the majority who care, I'm sorry the forums are like this and I'm sorry that we've been slow at getting things done. In the end it's our fault for not dealing with it sooner. I can't do anything about how slow things have been up to this point apart from apologise. It's true that we were meant to be done by now, we're not because we didn't plan properly. I've changed how inventory works twice now and it'll be a three times before it's actually done. I could've done it once and left it at that, but half-doing things is why FL is currently dead and why the attempt last summer failed. There's definitely a middle ground though, and I really hope we can finish everything we wanted before the summer where FL usually sees its peak. We wouldn't have changed over 20,000 lines of code in the last month or so if we didn't care or didn't want to try. For context, that's probably more than there has been in the past few years. It does suck to then have to come onto the forums and see blatant lies about what we're doing, it makes everyone consider why they're even bothering and that's not okay.
We'll keep having these progress reports every two weeks, we'll try find something so we can actually make use of the teasers channel at some point and once inventory is done the dev blog will go up. If you have any questions you can ping or DM me on discord to ask. I've had nice conversations with some of you, it's just a shame about all the noise on the forums. I'll leave this thread open too, but the forums isn't great for actual conversations.
tl;dr: Forums are a mess, I'm sorry, we're cleaning it up. If you think we're taking the wrong approach, let us know why. Things have been slow, my fault for not planning properly and we're trying to make up for it. I can't change what has happened so far, all I can do is keep trying. Join discord, it's better. Ping or DM me if you have any questions, I always answer them. I'll leave this thread open.
Pollux
Fearless Management
bork
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bork
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