[FL] SnowFlame

[Memeimrich]

Reported User(s): [FL] SnowFlame

Reported User's SteamID: STEAM_0:0:66027763

Date & Time (GMT): 5/12/20 @ 22:00 GMT

Summary of the incident
Wizz (STEAM_0:1:63598651) and I were chilling at our farm at Grassy Fields when the whole group of the Crimson Order shows up to our gate to "burglarize" it. Seeing as they were armed with longarms and molotovs and directly stated the burglary was going to happen (not stealth) this wouldn't qualify as a burglary. We also had no contraband or interaction with them and they wouldn't know we were technically a gang. This would also violate raiding rules. We eventually opened fire on them because they wouldn't leave and kept threatening us and were holding molotovs and such. A little into the raid (as shown in the video) SnowFlame comes and declares our sniper tower to not be allowed. I believed he did this out of bias as he participates with the Crimson Gang ( I believe he even was part of the raid but forgot to set his job. ) As you can see the sniper / guard tower is very tastefully built and we are well-versed in the rules of what we can and cannot due regarding doomforting, shooting up/down elevators, cover, etc. SnowFlame also refused to stop the rule-violating raid.

Confirmed guilty parties (what members of Crimson Order I could find): jOsHZ (STEAM_0:1:57372971), Willem (STEAM_0:0:120278589), FROST (STEAM_0:0:526830887), [FL] SnowFlame (STEAM_0:0:66027763)

Evidence
SnowFlame's job right after the raid (maybe during?):


Videos of the raid and the admins interrupting (sorry for the three parts):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w19GyxdWu4Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nutUJx0EcM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2n4-wBILH0

[SnowFlame]

Please post this in the admin report section rather than player report

[Memeimrich]

Admin report section doesn't state that I can post for you removing props. The player report section says higher staff will handle admin reports.
(6. Player reports on staff (Trial administrators S1 & S2 and Administrators) are concluded by the Supervising Administrators and/or Owner.)

[SnowFlame]

Ok. First of all, wasn't apart of the raid, was just spectating. Someone made a valid point that the tower wasn't allowed, paused the raid and called Conn over to analyse your base, we both agreed it wasn't allowed and asked you to remove it?

Really do not see the point of this PR/AA... But

P.S the raid by the looks of it was initiated by yourself as you shot first?

[Memeimrich]

The tower is absolutely allowed, stated here in the Doomforting explanations:
"Walkways and sniper/guard towers are allowed, both with and without defensive walls to guard you from bullets. However, be cautious, because it's tempting to combine this with features such as fading firing positions, or over-powered use of one-way glass in a guard tower. If you use one-way glass in one of these structures, you must not be able to fire from such a position or near it."

You told me there was no cover for the keypad, but there was. The tower was simply a water tower / guard tower that held no contraband. It is also irrelevant because shooting up and down an elevator shaft is against the rules and I even made it clear I understood that and wouldn't do that in the video.

Also

Rule 7.4 "Roleplay burglary properly, don't use molotovs, assault rifles and don't use shotguns, you want to be as quiet as possible (keypad crackers are the only exception to this). Also, in general, do not provoke the government into raiding you on purpose. As a criminal, you want to keep a low profile."

Rule 7.5 "You need a valid reason to raid, i.e contraband and burglary. You cannot raid the President solely to earn money, because of high taxes (unless it's above 20%), because you don't like certain laws (unless they drastically impact your character, cars being banned from the city is not a valid reason), because you were arrested or warned for your own actions, for being demoted or because their job is Dictator (this is Metagaming)."

Aaaaaand stated under reason for raid/criminal activity explanation:
"Generally, so long as you aren't raiding solely for reasons explicitly banned in the rules, and you attempt to RP rather than just gun everyone down, you'll be ok and are allowed to raid."

There was no contraband on the property or prior interaction as gangs so there was no valid reason to initiate the raid.

[Wizker]

Hello, I have to reply here considering I have more video evidence/another perspective of the raid beginning.

Clearly they state "Yeah we're here to take your contra" (That we never had.) at the 0:15 second mark after being asked if they were "burglarizing." 7.4 states you need to take a stealthy approach to a burglary, and you become restricted to light arms, and lockpicks/keypad crackers.

They clearly came up to the gate and openly said they were burglarizing us, starting the conflict/"raid".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imCoC9C0y_E

[SnowFlame]

Regarding the tower there was not any cover on any of the keypads and Conn can confirm this, this was the main reason for the deletion. If we're stating rules then "Doomforts are overpowered defences that are almost impossible for a raiding party to overcome, even if they are realistic. For the most part, it should be pretty clear what comprises a doomfort, however, if you are unsure, ask a staff member; they always have the final say on what is and what isn't doomforting. In this section we'll run through the most common features that comprise a doomfort." Administrators have the final say on a base and if we class it as a doomfort/not allowed. This really isn't a reason for reporting me to be honest, The whole reason for raids or reporting them can be made in a seperate PR as I'm not involved in any what way in that raid, so will not comment; However in the start of video one, although they have guns/molotovs out they haven't actually started anything, you shot first hence the initiation for the raid... But like I say, I can't really comment on that as I wasn't apart of it.


I'd just like to reiterate that this report on me isn't really valid, you can't report me for doing my job, I didn't abuse. I made a decision with another administrator and stuck with that decision, I wasn't apart of the raid so can't be held accountable for any shots/iniations made during that raid. All in all, I can't see me needing to say much more? You said yourself you can't make an AA on me as me deleting your tower was valid* in terms of what im allowed to do*. So I don't understand this PR tbh

[Memeimrich]

What other cover should we have given? An armored box with a door? The keypad is beneath the tower. It's covered. The keypads on the elevator are covered by the do not shoot up or down an elevator shaft rule. They initiated the raid as they stated in Wizz's video. Look at the video and tell me that is not the start of the raid. Is walking up to the Nexus with guns when ready to raid not initiation of a raid?

Also you stated: "For the most part, it should be pretty clear what comprises a doomfort-" and "Doomforts are overpowered defences that are almost impossible for a raiding party to overcome-" (All in the rules, of course.)

It is clearly stated that this is not a doomfort as in the rules and you can clearly see them nearly killing me while I'm in the tower. It's a semi-transparent platform that leaves me with no cover and nowhere to go. If they would have kept fighting, they probably would have killed me.

EDIT: Also I understand that staff have final say, but considering the fact that you removing the tower assisted the others in a successful raid and then you joined their gang moments later is not indicative that you had an unbiased approach to the rules.

Also, despite the title of the thread being you, the report is still against all players involved as they still lacked a valid reason to raid and had no business coming to our gate with weapons drawn telling us they are here to take our non-existent contraband. The only reason I picked your name for the title of the report is due to your actions being the most impactful due to you overwhelmingly turning the, again, invalid raid to their favor as well as due to it being disproportionately impacted by your position.

[SnowFlame]

Hello,

I think you fail to understand the concept of the rule, keypads need cover... I'm not going to keep repeating myself but as myself and Conn stated, they need cover, end of. I'm confused, your not telling me that by them standing at the gate whilst they might be armed but not actually doing anything, your counting as iniatiion? Because if so again that is blatantly not allowed, you fired the first shot hence the initiation of the raid. Had you of left it and waited till they fired the first shot, started lockpicking or anything else that counts as a raid and or burglary then fine, but you started the raid so your mistake.

Like I keep saying throughout this whole PR, whilst it might still include the others, you reporting me is purely invalid and void. You can't report me because myself and ANOTHER admin which may I add you've failed to mention throughout this whole "PR" decided to delete your tower which you couldn't live without and caused you fail, had it of been any other gang or players raiding you, the conclsion would've been the same. So unless you've actually gotten anything valid against me? then I'd request for you to remove me from this PR. I have not broken any player rules as I wasn't apart of the raid, nor have I broken any staff rules or abused by deleting your tower.

Thanks,
SnowFlame

[Memeimrich]

If you’d like I can remove you from this thread due to your technical non-involvement until immediately following the raid and instead follow up with you using your position to give the group your a part of an advantage during a raid to the staff report section. Removing a players props in it of itself is not an offense however selectively enforcing rules against the party your group is attacking (again, for literally no reason. You’re involved with them as proven by the screenshot taken moments afterwards, so if you have any idea of what their reason to raid was I’d love to hear it) is a gross abuse of your position as an administrator. Due to your involvement with the group, it was extremely unprofessional of you to not recuse yourself from the sit and let another staff member handle it. Or at the very least address it after the fact and not during the fact thus giving your party an unfair advantage.

Either way, this player report is against jOsHZ (STEAM_0:1:57372971), Willem (STEAM_0:0:120278589), FROST (STEAM_0:0:526830887), and the other unidentified Crimson Order members for a breach of rules 7.4 and 7.5. We were under the assumption that due to your immediate involvement with the group after the fact that you were also present during the raid. If this is not the case then I apologize for including you in it and will instead handle the issue you were involved with separately. However, this is a player report against all parties involved in the raid and not exclusively a staff report against you and I would like to focus on the report on the players and not argue over the rules of the tower as that can be handled in its respective thread. 


And I'm not sure if you're here to police your own player report but I'd appreciate it if you didn't make it appear that way. There should be another staff response here due to your connections to the group.