Changes to punishments for uninvolved posts

[Joykill]

I don't get why all moderators and admins (with no involvement whatsoever) get a pass to voice their opinion on every abuse thread when normal members are not given the same treatment. They rarely add much besides arguing (i.e. discussing - what the idea is to avoid) for the admin in question, something that should be reserved for those making the final judgement. 

I understand the rationale behind closing them from becoming a discussion, but allowing admins - involved or not - to comment doesn't follow that very rationale. 

The way I see it posting should be limited to only people directly involved (administrators or not) and SAs. In addition sometimes posts are still left up only with a warning while som others are entirely removed. This should be streamlined with all posts entirely removed and replaced with a warning. 

Despite this I want to make it clear that I'm happy for the fact efforts are being taken to keep admin abuse threads public and accessable for everybody. That's best for everybody.

[Random]

I don't get why all moderators and admins (with no involvement whatsoever) get a pass to voice their opinion on every abuse thread when normal members are not given the same treatment. They rarely add much besides arguing (i.e. discussing - what the idea is to avoid) for the admin in question, something that should be reserved for those making the final judgement. 

I understand the rationale behind closing them from becoming a discussion, but allowing admins - involved or not - to comment doesn't follow that very rationale. 

The way I see it posting should be limited to only people directly involved (administrators or not) and SAs. In addition sometimes posts are still left up only with a warning while som others are entirely removed. This should be streamlined with all posts entirely removed and replaced with a warning. 

Despite this I want to make it clear that I'm happy for the fact efforts are being taken to keep admin abuse threads public and accessable for everybody. That's best for everybody.

So. You are saying normal players should also be able to comment in (U)BR without being involved? Imagine every single "normal player" (Teachers, contributors and Developers included) commenting in a courthouse thread. It'd be chaos.

Now, I completley see why both mods and admins are allowed to comment freely.
Mods; Superiors are able to see the moderator's judgement.
Admins: They are experienced enough, they have clear knowledge about the rules and when they comment they add something valueable to the case..

I don't see how you can say that admins only argue in the courthouse? I have only seen arguing that was constructive or relevant to the case.

[Joykill]

I don't get why all moderators and admins (with no involvement whatsoever) get a pass to voice their opinion on every abuse thread when normal members are not given the same treatment. They rarely add much besides arguing (i.e. discussing - what the idea is to avoid) for the admin in question, something that should be reserved for those making the final judgement. 

I understand the rationale behind closing them from becoming a discussion, but allowing admins - involved or not - to comment doesn't follow that very rationale. 

The way I see it posting should be limited to only people directly involved (administrators or not) and SAs. In addition sometimes posts are still left up only with a warning while som others are entirely removed. This should be streamlined with all posts entirely removed and replaced with a warning. 

Despite this I want to make it clear that I'm happy for the fact efforts are being taken to keep admin abuse threads public and accessable for everybody. That's best for everybody.

So. You are saying normal players should also be able to comment in (U)BR without being involved? Imagine every single "normal player" (Teachers, contributors and Developers included) commenting in a courthouse thread. It'd be chaos.

Now, I completley see why both mods and admins are allowed to comment freely.
Mods; Superiors are able to see the moderator's judgement.
Admins: They are experienced enough, they have clear knowledge about the rules and when they comment they add something valueable to the case..

I don't see how you can say that admins only argue in the courthouse? I have only seen arguing that was constructive or relevant to the case.

-> Perhaps I was unclear, I'm only referring to admin abuse threads <-

No, I'm not saying everyone should be able to comment. As I said;

The way I see it posting should be limited to only people directly involved (administrators or not) and SAs.

About the mods and admins;
The courthouse (in particular admin abuse cases) should not be a proving ground for moderators - leave that for on the server. It is a place for presentation of evidence and not a place for everyone to chime in with their own opinion. 

Many of the abuse cases touch issues and unclarities in the rules, so it's not always black and white. They are to be decided by SAs, and as such admins not involved in the case shouldn't take part. 

I've also seen normal members, who are not involved, that post legitimately constructive posts, but that doesn't mean they're allowed to. Same thing should apply to administrators.

[Create]

I believe that these changes are a good idea. Sometimes you would get certain people posting on your thread for no reason. It's like when you post a player report on someone for something they said in OOC and then another player replies saying they were a witness because they were in the server at the time. Again, when people, not naming who, put a -Support on a Player Report xD. I apologise for my spelling and grammar.  It is 5:30am and I haven't slept yet :/

[Marty]

Joykill has it nailed down. I don't care what anyone says, please stop Reebs from being able to post in these things...I mean since he became a moderator he has literally posted in every AA, several times. I'm sorry but in an admin abuse thread a moderator has no valid input regardless of whether they are right or wrong.

The only time they should be commenting there is when they are either involved, or it's posted on them.

Same applies to Admins. But this is a rule we will never see implemented as once you are staff on FL you instantly become better than anyone else and the members and players are no longer a concern as you do not socialise with such peasants so therefore continue to talk down to them, ignore them, follow them about noclipped and phased waiting for them to breaks rule because they pointed out how the admin was wrong (next time turn off your flashlight Hitman)

This stuff bothers me greatly.

[Avgar]

Joykill has it nailed down. I don't care what anyone says, please stop Reebs from being able to post in these things...I mean since he became a moderator he has literally posted in every AA, several times. I'm sorry but in an admin abuse thread a moderator has no valid input regardless of whether they are right or wrong.

The only time they should be commenting there is when they are either involved, or it's posted on them.

Same applies to Admins. But this is a rule we will never see implemented as once you are staff on FL you instantly become better than anyone else and the members and players are no longer a concern as you do not socialise with such peasants so therefore continue to talk down to them, ignore them, follow them about noclipped and phased waiting for them to breaks rule because they pointed out how you were wrong (next time turn off your flashlight Hitman)

This stuff bothers me greatly.

Joykill offered his opinion, you offered yours, I've read these opinions and am actually considering implementing some kind of rule-set regarding which staff members can share opinions or respond to admin abuse cases, as they can become quite filled with information that adds little to the case and simply makes it more difficult to investigate it*. But man oh man, if you look at the text I underlined in the quote, it has got to be one of the most defeatist messages I've ever seen on this forum. Do you honestly believe the things you're saying?

once you are staff on FL you instantly become better than anyone else and the members and players are no longer a concern as you do not socialise with such peasants
The community, which is made up of members and players and staff and contributors, etc. is always the primary concern to the staff. So some admins want to host private roleplays. So what? Regular players do that, but they don't get any flack for it, because there's nothing wrong with it. Sometimes you want to keep the player count low in a roleplay or manage who is in it, so that the quality of the roleplay wouldn't suffer from having to find a role for every single person that joins it.

I may not be active on the servers these days, but when I was, most of the roleplays me and Lesanka would set up would be open to everyone. Hell, most of the time it's more fun roleplaying with new people as you don't know them or what they are capable of. That is how I made most of my acquaintances. The same is valid for most if not all staff members.

follow them about noclipped and phased waiting for them to breaks rule because they pointed out how you were wrong
I've also heard the complaint of 'I'm being tracked by this or that admin, therefore they are biased' a hundred times now. Consider the situation:
1. An admin receives a call about a certain player breaking some kind of rule.
2. The admin teleports there, invisible, but the player is no longer breaking any apparent rules, nor can it be proved by logs.
3. The admin leaves.
4. The admin receives another call about the same player breaking some kind of rule.
5. The admin comes again, doesn't see the player breaking rules so they decide to stay and follow them for a while to investigate and catch them in the act of breaking rules.

Where is the abuse in the above? Hell, I'll admit it, several times I was overseeing a slum base to gather evidence on players baiting the cops by running at their face and flashing their guns then retreating back to their base. Am I biased or abusive for that? I certainly don't think so, because the sort of rule break that I was watching out for cannot be detected unless video evidence is taken or a staff member sees it themselves.

so therefore continue to talk down to them, ignore them
As for staff talking down to people, please gather some evidence regarding that and provide it. Because at least to me, that is a serious concern, if a staff member not only punishes you but also insults you or berates you, it's clearly a problem and shouldn't be done. And as far as 'ignoring' goes, and you may lynch me for this, but I think a staff member deserves some time to roleplay and not actively respond to calls such as 'I was RDM'd', 'I was CDM'd', after they administrate the servers for a while. Because let's be frank here, Fearless is a gaming community, so why would I want to administrate and do nothing but administrate a community that I can't even dedicate some time to play on? There are good admin Samaritans that do not roleplay these days and that's fine, but those that do wish to roleplay should have the right to, at least sometimes.


*I don't mean Reebs posts in particular, it's happened before where AA cases reach over 10 pages with evidence and opinions scattered all over the place. Something like that should be avoided when possible.

[Marty]

I'm not going to quote your post due to its length but I will address some of the points you make.

I have nothing against private roleplays at all. My point is more about general chit chat or just socialising. Example I am a manager of a full division in my work...but I don't just sit in my office tell my staff what to do and then give them into shit if they do it wrong, I go out my way, get to know them, socialise with them, chat with them etc. Things such as this would greatly make the staff team more player centred and interactive with the community, an admin having a conversation with someone in OOC is now near enough unheard of, it's a minor point but something nonetheless.

The following incident: I of course understand than in situations in which a player has been reported via @ ie for example FearRP this had to be actually seen or recorded. However when you are barely on the server and start lurking around an admin while they are building something with someone who is in an enemy clan and they tell you to go away via PM and you tell them you are doing nothing wrong and are currently breaking no rules, considering the clans were in generalwarfare, and you eventually get fed up with said admin trying to enforce their rank on you and you tell them if they want to build go on the build server instead. (Also before you come back and say admins do that so they can respond to @'s...this wasn't the case on this ocassion I can assure that) then the admin follows you around phased while you drive to the city and as soon as you notice them they fly away.

Talking down: Look about the forums, there are countless examples, AA cases have been posted etc. At the end of the day nothing gets done about it and many players take it as they are an admin what can I do about it etc. I mean often players are told to shut the fuck up, or fuck off etc.

[Marty]

This has literally been the biggest reason I am not only nearly as much as I used to be, the mentality and attitude of certain people within this server is just to negative.

People play GMod because it's a fun game to come on to a server and be treated like a vagina or told you are a liar, or staff trying to enforce rules that don't exist, then threaten you with a kick or a ban if you continue to discuss it, If I was to tell an admin to shut the fuck. I would be banned for probably a day or two, if an admin tells me to shut the fuck up there is no recourse. :/

[Greed^]

-snip-

As for staff talking down to people, please gather some evidence regarding that and provide it.

Oh this shit happens daily
After literally 10 seconds of going through screenshots, here's the first example
I could find many more easily
[Image: q1DriTX.png]

[Agorith]

Marty, Greed,

I feel like you guys are talking about one specific person rather than the staff team in general because most of the complaints I've read trough now absolutely make no sense to me..
It's rare for an admin to have a conversation in OOC with a regular player nowadays, really!?

I could write a gigantic paragraph here with quotes and yada yada but honestly cba at this current moment.

However I'll say one thing, Marty, you claim to be less active due to the negativity on FL yet everywhere you go you leave negative and hateful vibes, usually towards staff even.
I'm sure you think you've got all staff members all figured out when in reality, you don't know a single one of them, not truly.
All I'm saying is please don't be the person to complain about something when you spread the one thing you complain about around like chocolate eggs on easter.