What are your rights in an admin situation?

[Jericho]

Greetings FL, today I'd like to bring up a relatively peculiar topic.

As we all know, after the significant division in the community. We have now been blessed with a new set of administrative team. However, along with this, they are not as endowed with experience and have varying understandings of rules in comparison to the previous team. This thread is in no form or way intended to attack the current staff team but moreover to bring attention to this matter. For example, one admin says you can't search detained suspects without a search warrant and one says you cant. One admin says you can wallbang, and one says you cant. One says you cant shoot unless youre shot at first.

Before I stray off topic. I want to make several things clear. There are admins whom clearly have a biased relationship with players making their POV in favour of their friends and I find it absolutely sickening having to deal with blatent corruption on a regular basis whilst playing on the server. Therefore I'd like to introduce a small incentive in which will prevent scenarios such as these.

I want to clarify an individuals rights in an admin situation, these include:

1.) If the admin dealing with your case has a clear biased view in favour of his acquaintances the user in question should be able to request another staff member available at the time to review the case. (Prevent biased decisions)

2.) If the admin dealing with the case has made a final verdict based from logs. User may request to see section of log that proves so. (Prevent bullshitting)

3.) Request to bring everyone involved in event in question to sit. (Again to prevent biased views)

Would you like to have your rights in an admin situation?

Post your opinions below and perhaps more rights that can come into place.

[Demonic]

It's admin abuse if the staff doesn't punish the person because they're friends
It's admin abuse if  the staff is bullshitting, lying to get you banned
You can already request to bring proof in if you ask politely. and not yell. Just the same as cops, if you talk calm with them they will grant you your wish, if you rage, yell they won't.

But yeah, I do think we should have a page that says the Rights you got. But It's kinda simple no? Talk and provide evidence to not get banned, Ignore and Don't provide evidence (Or defend) to get banned?


And most staff have different opinions, just ask permission from one, and if a staff talks to you about it, is trying to punish you you can just tell them ...(Staff) gave me permission.

[Audacter]

I agree to all three terms. However I think the showing of the logs should be requested via a Unban/Unblacklist request.

[Nevy]

I want to clarify an individuals rights in an admin situation, these include:

1.) If the admin dealing with your case has a clear biased view in favour of his acquaintances the user in question should be able to request another staff member available at the time to review the case. (Prevent biased decisions)

2.) If the admin dealing with the case has made a final verdict based from logs. User may request to see section of log that proves so. (Prevent bullshitting)

3.) Request to bring everyone involved in event in question to sit. (Again to prevent biased views)

Would you like to have your rights in an admin situation?

Post your opinions below and perhaps more rights that can come into place.

I think this is a good thing to bring up and discuss. You noted three things that I, as a previous administrator, do think were valid issues that never had 'solid' clarification. These are, however, things that already exist in some way, shape or form.

1) If you think an administrator dealing with your case has bias, you can request another administrator to give input. I can see how bias may exist and staff members may, whether intentional or unintentional, be more lenient towards someone they know or are friends with in the server. If you think an administrator is being bias and have evidence that supports this, I am sure you are able to post in the Admin Abuse section and have a shot at proving that the administrator in question is not punishing his or her friends as they are others who have done a similar rule breakage.

2) I also agree with this. There is no reason to not be transparent with logs. I don't think this should be required in an administrative situation as it would be tedious to do but I do think it can be requested, like Audacter mentioned, through the Unban/Unblacklist section.

3) This is already a thing, or at least was back when I was staff. If someone was involved and needed to be there, all you had to do was say the word and they would be there.

I'd want to discuss this further as I think this is something we should have a set precedent for. Consistency and fairness are two important things when it comes to server administration.

[Ali]

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+Support

[Holdem]

1.) If the admin dealing with your case has a clear biased view in favour of his acquaintances the user in question should be able to request another staff member available at the time to review the case. (Prevent biased decisions)

I started admining for the FL community in 2011, and ever since I started till today this is considered as Admin abuse and there have been cases in the past of staff being "punished" after being proven that they acted in a biased manner. 


2.) If the admin dealing with the case has made a final verdict based from logs. User may request to see section of log that proves so. (Prevent bullshitting)

Logs can be provided if the person in question asks for it nicely. There's no gain in an Admin banning you without due evidence/reason for it puts their status at risk. The problem comes however when 90% of the people that ask for log evidence know they're in the wrong but just want further evidence to see if they can get away with i if the admin can't find it. This causes delays, it stops people that need an Admin on the spot to have to wait because the Admin is going through logs. I think that you should be able to demand log proof ONLY if you strongly state that youy are innocent, and if you are proven through logs to be in the wrong or lying  you should be punished more severely, in the same way that in real life courts if you plead guilty straight away you get a lesser sentence than if you take up valuable police time and investigation for lying.



3.) Request to bring everyone involved in event in question to sit. (Again to prevent biased views)


Yes and No. In 90% of cases I would bring everyone involved, however it depends how many people were actually involved. For example, if there's a big argument about a raid without due reason I won't bring 5 cops, 4 rebels, 2 citizens a BMD and a paramedic to the roof to see their opinions on the raid, because this would take way too much time, so you would take the person in charge of the raid on both sides in order to hear both their stories. Plus, if I needed to validate information with someone involved I could always PM them.


I understand where you're coming from and ideally it would always be done the way you say it, however that is not practical at all in most cases. You see, when I was an Admin there were more than double the staff members, more SA's, way more Admins and the slots on the servers were a maximum of 50 people, both on v33x and v2d. Even when there was more than double our numbers, we still struggled to keep up with demand from players and admin situations. Players can't see the Admin chat, but I can assure you that sometimes you can have 5 different calls in a one minute period, that's without counting the people that are calling you for the same situation. Now, there are less than half the staff and the servers player size has gone up by 50%, to 75 players and sometimes there's only one mod/admin available. There have been many cases on my behalf in where we were so saturated with calls that I had to start issuing punishments/warnings without talking to the player in question AS LONG as I knew for a fact that the person broke the rules, like for example being invisible and watching someone break a rule. 95% of people will argue the punishment you have given them, even if they are in the wrong. Most people just complain because they're upset, not because they think they're right.

We have to see everything from every perspective and especially when the servers are full there is barely any time to be spent on each situation before you're called to another one, therefore sometimes it's best to issue the punishment that the admin believes is fair and if the player believes it's unfair he can take it to the Unban request section where it will be examined, logs will be checked if necessary and different people can put their input if they are involved. 



TL : DR Ideally yes, but it is practically impossible to enforce due to the small size of the staff compared to the huge amount of players and situations going on at the same time.

[goigle!]

I think this is a good thing to bring up and discuss. You noted three things that I, as a previous administrator, do think were valid issues that never had 'solid' clarification. These are, however, things that already exist in some way, shape or form.

1) If you think an administrator dealing with your case has bias, you can request another administrator to give input. I can see how bias may exist and staff members may, whether intentional or unintentional, be more lenient towards someone they know or are friends with in the server. If you think an administrator is being bias and have evidence that supports this, I am sure you are able to post in the Admin Abuse section and have a shot at proving that the administrator in question is not punishing his or her friends as they are others who have done a similar rule breakage.

2) I also agree with this. There is no reason to not be transparent with logs. I don't think this should be required in an administrative situation as it would be tedious to do but I do think it can be requested, like Audacter mentioned, through the Unban/Unblacklist section.

3) This is already a thing, or at least was back when I was staff. If someone was involved and needed to be there, all you had to do was say the word and they would be there.

I'd want to discuss this further as I think this is something we should have a set precedent for. Consistency and fairness are two important things when it comes to server administration.

1) In practice this right does not exist

2) nothing to say

3) same as 2


I think an actual, public, guideline should be set out if anything so everyone is on the same page