Is this FailRP? [Debate/Discussion]

[Shorty]

I would like to hear both sides. But depending on how much background there was (not just "pres didn't pay us, we shoot up hospital") because I feel like unless there was sufficient enough drive to go to such extents it shouldn't have happened. You are an intelligent mafia, not terrorists. I agree extorting the president and possibly hostaging hospital staff and citizens would be a good roleplay to show you mean business. But from what I read here you threatened the president, he denied, then you shot and killed a bunch of citizens and defenseless government workers.

Just for clarification nobody was shot or injured/killed. The only "damage" that was done if you consider it damage, would be the gun shots being fired into and around the hospital walls/roof.

Taking people hostage is like a death-wish tbh and is very, very common in CityRP. Shooting up a government building (where no one nor anything was actually damaged) isn't as common and is a lot harder for the government to track down the suspects. People could say oh I saw so and so do it, but there'd be almost no hard evidence. Whereas if you took a hostage, you'd be well known by the government as a hostage taker and would be searched for relentlessly by the law enforcement.

Mafia don't do drive by shootings of this nature, to be honest.

I don't know what kind of Mafia you're visioning but there have been for sure at least a dozen instances of Mafia Drive-By shootings that have been documented on the news in the past 10 years.

And I wouldn't say that walking through a hospital shooting at its walls and the roof is a drive-by either.

[Davidson]

No Shorty. When Jamster says they don't do drive by in this nature then he means that people associated with a Mafia family dosnt shoot up a governmental building without having a target they want to take down. All drive by from mafia groups had always been to kill certain people, and not as scare tactics.

[TR1CK]

No Shorty. When Hamster says they don't do drive by in this nature then he means that people associated with a Mafia family dosnt shoot up a governmental building without having a target they want to take down. All drive by from mafia groups had always been to kill certain people, and not as scare tactics.

Not really, the mafia aswell burns places down which refuse to pay for their protection, thats why they burn people their place down if they don't pay for protection, instead of just going inside and blow a head off.

[CommanderEcho]

So you go shoot up a hospital just because the president wouldnt let you work for him? (Failrp itsself as mafia wouldnt work with the government) I would see this as failrp, you wouldnt go shoot up a hospital because someone said no to something.

[Davidson]

No Shorty. When Hamster says they don't do drive by in this nature then he means that people associated with a Mafia family dosnt shoot up a governmental building without having a target they want to take down. All drive by from mafia groups had always been to kill certain people, and not as scare tactics.

Not really, the mafia aswell burns places down which refuse to pay for their protection, thats why they burn people their place down if they don't pay for protection, instead of just going inside and blow a head off.

I agree Trick. Though we are not talking about a private shop here, we are talking about a governmental building. As I was referring to as well, apologize if that wasn't clear in my post. 
Private Shops: Yes, the mafia used/uses scare tactics to get them to pay and to make others pay for protection.
Governmental Grounds: No, the mafia doesn't shoot governmental buildings at all as a scare tactic. The few times (at least to my knowledge) the mafia have had direct attacks on the government it has ONLY to dispose of certain people.
Conclusion for my point of view: It was failrp, you guys shouldn't even had come to the president but gone to a much more local level. Like bribe the police sergeant and alike. Protection money dosn't come from the government, protection money comes from the public and private shops. You bribe the government.. not threaten them to give you money. (Sure you can threaten the government, if one of your guys have been taken prisoner or something like that.)

Best Regards

[James_Gaff]

Shorty, I searched before saying that. The only documented news report I could find was of them killing a single woman. This is also talking recent mafia. The smugglers and drug dealers. Not Al Capone's goons.

Also, drive by shooting is a term of phrase. It doesn't always mean they were in a car.

[aviator]

If every thing you said is true - it isn't.

Didn't people strive for realism? Well criminals go shoot up innocents. I'd say their motives were well thought as a way to force the president to accept their services. Pretty sound imo.

[Doodleh]

I was the underboss at that time, I do verify this story.

I must state that shooting up a hospital as a scare tactic was also not a very clever thought.
Though this was a valid tactic if we did try to extort the president, which we did.

Now you might think, "Extorting the president? The maffia never did that.".

This is an invalid thought

In the peak times of the maffia, the maffia were so strong that they actuelly were able to bring the entire productivity of the USA to a halt. They were infiltrated in every union. It is ignorant to believe that the maffia would not have infiltrated the government aswell.
To state that the maffia would not interact with the government in any way, is an invalid thought.

I would not have classified this as failRP, though I must admit that I do understand the arguements the moderators put up.


This is once again making a great example on what a grey area "failRP" is. It really is dependand on the administrator/moderator in question.

Now the moderators did consult each other before giving their verdict, which is a great thing to eliminate opinions out of the situation. However, one of the moderators was involved in the situation, making his statement questionable.

This is absolutely not an attack on the moderator in question, therefore I am also not mentioning names.
However, I would like to prove that the reason "failrp", is purely based on opinions, and these differ greatly.

[Shorty]

So you go shoot up a hospital just because the president wouldnt let you work for him? (Failrp itsself as mafia wouldnt work with the government) I would see this as failrp, you wouldnt go shoot up a hospital because someone said no to something.

The Mafia always has had some involvement with the government IRL. (Sicilian mafia, they pretty much controlled the politics & government of Sicily during their rule.) 
There is no rule as well that explicitly says that the Mafia cannot conduct business with the government and so you saying that it being failRP because "the mafia wouldnt work with the government" seems invalid as their are historical facts that point to this claim, being false. 


In general, if you said No to the Mafia IRL you'd lose your life. (Read about the Black Hand) Now, obviously that wouldn't be allowed on this server because it'd be considered RDM. But, you should also be able to realize that if you say No to the Mafia IG, there will be some sort of consequence. In this case it was the Muccio Family shooting up the hospital, proving that the president's city was vulnerable and that the Muccio Family's 'Protection' services should maybe be considered 'hiring'.