Re-setting RP points

[Falc]

I made a lot of memories getting my RP points, it'd be a shame to see them go.

It's a shame, yes, but ultimately does it truly matter? After all, they only display besides your name.
Or am I way too inconsiderate here?

So inconsiderate!!!!

[Rowan13]

I could hardly ever devise a more pointless "fix" to such a non-issue, even if given a full time job at the goofy non-issue fixing think tank factory. Which by the way- FL owners- is a job I'm open to take (especially if the payroll if in RP points lmao)

But what is this talk about "RPP that are logged and those that aren't" ?
When and how did this happen? How extreme is this gap in the worst of cases?

[Doctor Internet]

But what is this talk about "RPP that are logged and those that aren't" ?
When and how did this happen? How extreme is this gap in the worst of cases?

The system for logging RPP reason only existed post, I think, 2014? 2016? I'd have to check. Any RPP before then don't have a reason attached. The worst case was a difference of 60 points, or something like that. I'd have to go and run the query again to check.

[Pollux]

I could hardly ever devise a more pointless "fix" to such a non-issue, even if given a full time job at the goofy non-issue fixing think tank factory. Which by the way- FL owners- is a job I'm open to take (especially if the payroll if in RP points lmao)

But what is this talk about "RPP that are logged and those that aren't" ?
When and how did this happen? How extreme is this gap in the worst of cases?

Anything that shows up as a row (point with a reason + admin who gave it) on the character page is "logged": https://fearlessrp.net/character.php

If there's any difference in the amount of entries there versus the points you actually have (number above them all), the remaining are all "unlogged" and would likely be removed for any revamp. For most the difference shouldn't be too much, but there are extreme cases where people would lose a lot more. The reason behind removing them is simply due to it being difficult to track and validate; some players have an extremely suspicious amount of "unlogged" points which we're unable to validate or track at all. In contrast, logged points tell us when it was given, who by and what the reason for it was. If we transferred any points 1:1 to any new system, that new system is pretty much useless unless we inflate the cost to insanely high numbers which just makes it unobtainable for most. If we only transfer "logged" points, it isn't as bad. This definitely runs the risk of removing many legitimate RPPs, but it is the only clear way to maintain some reward for those who already have points while balancing progression in any new system.

For context, discussions so far about any new system would have them be single use but any items purchased also being tradable. Less like the current linear "reward" system and more of a second currency that you obtain via roleplay. This is why we would need to reduce the top end of points in some way so we can actually balance it around regular players rather than just the top few. We'd also be able to hand them out much more often without having to worry about inflating it if they're a currency. It's very early in planning, but definitely a better system so far.

[Generation]

I could hardly ever devise a more pointless "fix" to such a non-issue, even if given a full time job at the goofy non-issue fixing think tank factory. Which by the way- FL owners- is a job I'm open to take (especially if the payroll if in RP points lmao)

But what is this talk about "RPP that are logged and those that aren't" ?
When and how did this happen? How extreme is this gap in the worst of cases?

Anything that shows up as a row (point with a reason + admin who gave it) on the character page is "logged": https://fearlessrp.net/character.php

If there's any difference in the amount of entries there versus the points you actually have (number above them all), the remaining are all "unlogged" and would likely be removed for any revamp. For most the difference shouldn't be too much, but there are extreme cases where people would lose a lot more. The reason behind removing them is simply due to it being difficult to track and validate; some players have an extremely suspicious amount of "unlogged" points which we're unable to validate or track at all. In contrast, logged points tell us when it was given, who by and what the reason for it was. If we transferred any points 1:1 to any new system, that new system is pretty much useless unless we inflate the cost to insanely high numbers which just makes it unobtainable for most. If we only transfer "logged" points, it isn't as bad. This definitely runs the risk of removing many legitimate RPPs, but it is the only clear way to maintain some reward for those who already have points while balancing progression in any new system.

For context, discussions so far about any new system would have them be single use but any items purchased also being tradable. Less like the current linear "reward" system and more of a second currency that you obtain via roleplay. This is why we would need to reduce the top end of points in some way so we can actually balance it around regular players rather than just the top few. We'd also be able to hand them out much more often without having to worry about inflating it if they're a currency. It's very early in planning, but definitely a better system so far.

I would like to bring my opinion on this as I'm in the TOP 5 RPP players.
I did acquired a lot points with my experience before the logs system gets in place.
I did acquired also a lot points with my roleplays experience after the logs system gets in place.

I'm here since 2012, simply "wiping" out the points because they are not tracked is insane.
WE, the community, the players, worked hard through different random roleplays, scenarios, events and much more...
Wiping this is wiping the history.

[ryan!]

I could hardly ever devise a more pointless "fix" to such a non-issue, even if given a full time job at the goofy non-issue fixing think tank factory. Which by the way- FL owners- is a job I'm open to take (especially if the payroll if in RP points lmao)

But what is this talk about "RPP that are logged and those that aren't" ?
When and how did this happen? How extreme is this gap in the worst of cases?

Anything that shows up as a row (point with a reason + admin who gave it) on the character page is "logged": https://fearlessrp.net/character.php

If there's any difference in the amount of entries there versus the points you actually have (number above them all), the remaining are all "unlogged" and would likely be removed for any revamp. For most the difference shouldn't be too much, but there are extreme cases where people would lose a lot more. The reason behind removing them is simply due to it being difficult to track and validate; some players have an extremely suspicious amount of "unlogged" points which we're unable to validate or track at all. In contrast, logged points tell us when it was given, who by and what the reason for it was. If we transferred any points 1:1 to any new system, that new system is pretty much useless unless we inflate the cost to insanely high numbers which just makes it unobtainable for most. If we only transfer "logged" points, it isn't as bad. This definitely runs the risk of removing many legitimate RPPs, but it is the only clear way to maintain some reward for those who already have points while balancing progression in any new system.

For context, discussions so far about any new system would have them be single use but any items purchased also being tradable. Less like the current linear "reward" system and more of a second currency that you obtain via roleplay. This is why we would need to reduce the top end of points in some way so we can actually balance it around regular players rather than just the top few. We'd also be able to hand them out much more often without having to worry about inflating it if they're a currency. It's very early in planning, but definitely a better system so far.

I would like to bring my opinion on this as I'm in the TOP 5 RPP players.
I did acquired a lot points with my experience before the logs system gets in place.
I did acquired also a lot points with my roleplays experience after the logs system gets in place.

I'm here since 2012, simply "wiping" out the points because they are not tracked is insane.
WE, the community, the players, worked hard through different random roleplays, scenarios, events and much more...
Wiping this is wiping the history.

ass opinion tbh

[Arkten]

Everyone worked hard to obtain their share of RPP, so it is blatantly insulting to any player to demote all of the playtime, the builds, the extraordinarily goofy or fun moments to just a memory.

Deleting RPP not only means deleting FL history as Generation pointed out, but it also means devaluing work and effort put into the community and into making the server a fun place for others. Exceptional roleplay is advantageous to FL and so FL should consequently reward such behaviour. The idea of RPP as a prestigous medal letting you unlock and progress through (admittedly bragging) items purely by effort and (perceived) RP value and not by simply spending massive amounts of hours minging worked quite well, I would say.

Yet, one cannot deny the fact that none of this is special anymore at all, mainly due to shifting requirements to obtain RPP over the years and the systemic inflation RPP have by their very nature. Management should find a way to strike a balance between player satisfaction and roleplay quality.

Honestly, I wouldn't want to lose my RPP. I was never an exceptional roleplayer and so I have only obtained 5 so far in 1000h of playtime (which I assume to be on the low end). As any other I fought for my share of RPP, but I also have to admit that it is my comfort getting to me. I like not having to put in effort now because I already achieved my goals and subsequently my RP quality diminishes.

I might complain at a wipe the first minute or two, but granting everyone a clean slate might incentivise me to work harder with the experience gained from the past. It would feel like I could actually keep up with others



My suggestion:

1. Current RPP (logged and unlogged) will remain as legacy points in statistics.
   This serves to appreciate and honour all effort members have put in to make the server a better place. While there might be some unfairness to how the points used to be given out (I doubt SoulRipper actually deserved 69 RPP) even the unlogged points should remain as they are. It is just part of FL history. We know the current system was/is flawed, but we shouldn't pretend it doesn't exist for the reasons stated in the beginning. Additionally, legacy points should not gatekeep items from new players. Making stuff unobtainable just because you haven't been there is not very motivating for potential new members.
   
   
2. Set clear and transparent standards on when and how to give out RPP.
   This serves to combat bias and favouritism in obtaining RPP. Getting a point just because you're the admin's friend is highly demotivating. As an example: Back in ca. 2014 it used to be near impossible to obtain RPP on v33x. You would go on v2d, do a /me serves soup to the guest and be awarded one. Granted, it might very well be an exaggeration or a misinterpretation of how I perceived things, but having clear and transparent standards would have helped resolve my own bias and reservation. It would hold all parties accountable (players for not making easy excuses to not roleplay well and admins for not giving out points because they like someone) and make sure RPPs are as fair as they can be.
   
   
3. Deflate RPPs and create active competition.
   A huge problem with the current RPP is its inflationary nature. RPP are created out of thin air and are (practically) never removed. Not only does this create stagnation for players after a certain threshold (Is there really a point after 10 RPP?), it makes new items either readily available for most players due to hoarding RPP or unaffordable for new players, which have to catch up to new status quo first. Neither is ideal. Management's idea of treating RPP as a currency (and thus being spendable) could work, however, I believe that this is the same system in disguise: Instead of keeping points on board you hide them in an inventory item. This (and also them being tradable) never decreases the total amount of RPP and therefore cannot deflate them.
   
   Just like in actual economics you want a cycle of inflation (a situation in which RPP are given out, rewarding great roleplay) and deflation (a situation in which RPP are taken out of the system, allowing newer players to catch up to older players in terms of progress). The exact details of such a system are obviously subject to debate. My proposition is the following:
   
   Set a maximum number of total RPP and have them expire by time.
   As unpopular as it sounds, it could be a sustainable solution to RPP. Having RPP expire by time (either real time to punish inactivity or playtime to punish sub-par roleplay) incentivises players to keep up their game if they want to keep the RPP rewards (they should be worth it). Older players could not rest on their previous work but would have to continuously prove themselves (which is of course easier with experience). It also serves to remove RPP out of the pool that can then be given out to other players, allowing anyone (even new players) to surpass older players for some time as this system is based on current effort and not just a test of time. The expired RPP could be counted seperately to honour past effort (or they could be counted as legacy points).
   
   Having a set maximum of total RPP serves to prevent (possibly infinite) inflation. Even if every roleplay is great and deservant of RPP, giving out points from an unlimited supply is a bad idea, as that leads to infinite inflation and thus the same situation we had before. While this forced deflation may seem demoralising to some, it will also spark more competition by raising the baseline for what exceptional roleplay is. If no RPP can be given out anymore, players will have to up their game further to stand out as a lot of great roleplay is (apparently) going on. This increases RP quality yet again.
   
   
   Obviously suitable parameters for total RPP amount and expiry time have to be found. Changing these dynamically is for more advanced economists. I'll leave this as an exercise to the reader
   

1700th post, yay

[Ludo]

I made a lot of memories getting my RP points, it'd be a shame to see them go.

It's a shame, yes, but ultimately does it truly matter? After all, they only display besides your name.
Or am I way too inconsiderate here?

I'll tell you right now as a veteran player that my hours, points and money would be the only thing that would make me want to come back to a server that has been down for nearly a year and a half now. Playing and roleplaying is fun but I would have no incentive to return here and do so if all of my work and achievement vanished. What would I want to come back for then? All of my friends I played with have since moved on, all of my progress I ever achieved since 2012 is gone and now my roleplay points are gonna be taken away too?

Yeah ill just never play again and forever lurk the forums once every 4months if that's the case.

[Haarek]

I made a lot of memories getting my RP points, it'd be a shame to see them go.

It's a shame, yes, but ultimately does it truly matter? After all, they only display besides your name.
Or am I way too inconsiderate here?

I'll tell you right now as a veteran player that my hours, points and money would be the only thing that would make me want to come back to a server that has been down for nearly a year and a half now.

I think it is imperative to understand that what FL needs is not old players to come back - but an influx in new players.

Disregard the RP point discussion for a second.

Consider the fact that FL shouldn't be focusing on getting old players back - but rather focusing on attracting new players. With all due respect it doesn't matter if me, you or any other oldtimer comes back, because if you ever want to return FL to a full server you need to get an influx of new players.

Preferably 13 yr olds with no commitments.

I just think your comment shows a skewed understanding of the situation. And I don't think you are the only person with this view.

[Nacreas]

I made a lot of memories getting my RP points, it'd be a shame to see them go.

It's a shame, yes, but ultimately does it truly matter? After all, they only display besides your name.
Or am I way too inconsiderate here?

I'll tell you right now as a veteran player that my hours, points and money would be the only thing that would make me want to come back to a server that has been down for nearly a year and a half now.

I think it is imperative to understand that what FL needs is not old players to come back - but an influx in new players.

Disregard the RP point discussion for a second.

Consider the fact that FL shouldn't be focusing on getting old players back - but rather focusing on attracting new players. With all due respect it doesn't matter if me, you or any other oldtimer comes back, because if you ever want to return FL to a full server you need to get an influx of new players.

Preferably 13 yr olds with no commitments.

I just think your comment shows a skewed understanding of the situation. And I don't think you are the only person with this view.

I agree with you that what FL needs is an influx of new players, but oldtimers still have their place. The focus needs to be getting players back as a whole, not just new ones. We also need a server for this.

Re-setting RP points would not effect new players joining or their retention as they'd have the full FL experience before them. Resetting RP points would effect oldtimers only, for them to simply get back to the place they were before. Personally I believe one of the focuses should be on new rewards for veteran players.

There are options available and I would be interested to know what people thought about having donator status rewards for having so many hours. It might encourage people to be active if it could save them some cash at the other end. This could also be back-captured, encouraging people to come back.