Project New Weapons(Hephaestus)

[Baskingner]

You actually did say the community has no voice, our opinion doesnt matter for your decisions according to you which is pretty much the same thing.

3rd person wasnt unfair according to 75% but since youre an administrator you can decide that this 75% was wrong and overrule this with your own opinion. Doesnt seem right to me.

[Nevy]

I said it does not account for our decision, meaning that we do not use the communities opinion as the one deciding factor in things.

Serious issues, such as the third-person exploit, take more into account then people complaining that they like the unfair advantage it offered them. Let's not pretend like it didn't exist. Heck, I for sure took advantage of it when it was there. It was a move that we believe is bringing our gamemode in the right direction, so I am sorry to hear that you and a few others are displeased with it. If you'd like to discuss it further, please make a Discussion thread in the appropriate forum. 

This thread shall remain On-Topic about the New Weapons Update. 

Thanks!

[Jan]

I said it does not account for our decision, meaning that we do not use the communities opinion as the one deciding factor in things.

But you should, because the community is way more important. Honestly I wonder why you guys even make discussion threads if you think you're more important then an entire community when it comes to decision making?

[Labrador]

All I'm seeing is staff misuse their words by saying the community ain't deciding this and that, Just put it bloody straight forward before actually putting into words "F*ck you community" we all matter and are the reason FL is still alive so choose your words carefully.

[aviator]

I'm sorry, this is beyond ridiculous.

"This is something that effected gameplay as it made our combat system completely unrealistic and gave players who chose to use 3rd person an advantage over those who used 1st person."

We already discussed this. Third person was available to EVERYONE, therefore it's use did NOT give an advantage over first person. It is a preferential choice. Stop saying this. I'd hardly say it was an exploit and if it was why the fuck did it take SoulRipper and Temar over 3 years to acknowledge it and a further 6 months before it was removed? This one isn't any criticism to SoulRipper, since his opinion was clearly defined in the thread:
"[02DEC2014] New weapons won't change the way third person works. Also it's a RP server that benefits from passive RP. Cool guns with skins is nice for a deathmatch gamemode but not a requirement for a roleplay server with intends to not stimulate aggressive RP too much.



I think it will be a big loss removing the third person view when using a weapon. First of all it will be annoying to keep switching from view when you equip and holster a weapon. Secondly the view of your character holding the gun and doing the shooting is a nice effect. Some prefer the first person view and some the third person view, that's why this addons was one of the best added.



I respect opinions of both sides but I do have this question to those who wants the third person view removed:

If you think it gives an unfair advantage, why you don't use third person yourself to benefit this advantage?



My decision would be to keep it."

"you and a few others are displeased with it"

As already discussed when this was a hot topic, the MAJORITY of the community disagreed with the decision. Not a "few" others, don't try and brush this off in that respect.

"The community can voice their opinion, but it does not account for our decision."
"I'm not saying the community has no voice."

Indeed you're not saying we have no voice, but you are saying our voice counts for jack shit.

"I said it does not account for our decision, meaning that we do not use the communities opinion as the one deciding factor in things."

I sure hope this isn't how the rest of those Admins, Super Admins and SoulRipper feels and I am certain SoulRipper will have something to say about that comment...

This is utterly utterly pointless, as nice as it is to have better weapons the decisions the team met have resulted in a large amount of backlash from many community members.

Honest to god...

[GeorgeTheBoy]

I'm sorry, this is beyond ridiculous.

"This is something that effected gameplay as it made our combat system completely unrealistic and gave players who chose to use 3rd person an advantage over those who used 1st person."

We already discussed this. Third person was available to EVERYONE, therefore it's use did NOT give an advantage over first person. It is a preferential choice. Stop saying this. I'd hardly say it was an exploit and if it was why the *** did it take SoulRipper and Temar over 3 years to acknowledge it and a further 6 months before it was removed?

Just because both options are available to people, doesn't mean that one doesn't give an unfair advantage over the other. You can look around corners and shoot in third person, something you can not do in first. Players should NOT be forced to fight in third person just because fighting in first would result in their death.

The suggested fix for this has been fair. Seeming as third person was used mostly for this exploit, now you fire around corners with less accuracy, something that makes sense seeming as you are not looking down the sights. The community voted not to remove third person shooting, so it hasn't been removed.

Saying 'because it's available for everyone it isn't unfair' is a flawed argument. In real life, legal drugs are available to everyone, but using them while taking part in a sport isn't allowed as it is considered unfair.

"They are available for everyone, so why doesn't everyone take them?!"

Same argument.

[Floodify]

It's even more unrealistic having to take your WHOLE body to look on the other side of the corner though. It puts you in an incredibly bad spot, which is then for the advantage of the other player. Some are just too used to third person from games etc.

[Baskingner]

I'm sorry, this is beyond ridiculous.

"This is something that effected gameplay as it made our combat system completely unrealistic and gave players who chose to use 3rd person an advantage over those who used 1st person."

We already discussed this. Third person was available to EVERYONE, therefore it's use did NOT give an advantage over first person. It is a preferential choice. Stop saying this. I'd hardly say it was an exploit and if it was why the *** did it take SoulRipper and Temar over 3 years to acknowledge it and a further 6 months before it was removed?

Just because both options are available to people, doesn't mean that one doesn't give an unfair advantage over the other. You can look around corners and shoot in third person, something you can not do in first. Players should NOT be forced to fight in third person just because fighting in first would result in their death.

The suggested fix for this has been fair. Seeming as third person was used mostly for this exploit, now you fire around corners with less accuracy, something that makes sense seeming as you are not looking down the sights. The community voted not to remove third person shooting, so it hasn't been removed.

Saying 'because it's available for everyone it isn't unfair' is a flawed argument. In real life, legal drugs are available to everyone, but using them while taking part in a sport isn't allowed as it is considered unfair.

"They are available for everyone, so why doesn't everyone take them?!"

Same argument.

Absolutely not the same argument. First of all FL is about having fun, not winning a big price on a sports event. Using drugs there can possibly cause people to lose money while here on FL using 3rd person mode can only cost people some weapons. Drugs is not available for everyone there, if you are a starter you cant afford using dope to be faster/better. Here on FL you only need a Shift and tab button to use this feature.

As defender you have absolutely no advantage currently. The doomfort rules are as vague as you are going to get them but they are clear on one thing "It cant give the defender an advantage", leaving the defender without any possibility to be in the advantage when defending his own home. 

I dont understand why we are discussing this again, the community said they dont want it changed and it still happened, why is that?

[Faustie]

It's happened partially to accommodate the new update. In the past, it was only mildly unfair that third-person allowed players to exploit shooting in two ways (looking through props and around walls and shooting with 0 accuracy penalty and recoil), and we left it in because, while it was an exploit, to be honest the weapons ironsights sucked and shooting would be impossible.

However, the new weapons all have improved ironsights, and there are around 10 optical sights available, and also a laser sight and various stability mods. People who exploit third-person now have a major advantage over people who use first-person, as they can get all of the benefits of these mods simply by going third-person and abusing an exploit. We haven't removed third-person shooting, but we have removed an exploit; third-person shooting is still perfectly viable at close range, which is where one would be most likely to hip-fire. We cannot keep the third-person exploit without removing the mods, as it creates a highly unfair situation. If you're upset that you can't exploit a system for your own advantage any more, then tough; the super-accurate crosshair was never intended to be that accurate, something I noticed when looking through the code and seeing it half-finished.

It's also worth noting that a couple of the weapons behave differently in third-person, which would ruin the balance and make certain weapons perform far better than others. This change fixes that.

In any semi-legitimate shooter, they would fix an exploit such as this that allowed players who chose a certain item/firing mode/camera a clear advantage over those who didn't. In that same case, there would also be many people who whine that they're no longer allowed to abuse a bug for perfect accuracy at the expense of those who play first-person or spend large amounts of cash on mods.

[Baskingner]

Makes a whole lot more sense, thanks Faust.
However i disagree with the whole "its an exploit" thing i can agree with removing it in order to make place for mods.