FL's content and gamemode

[Grape]

This is not an 'FL is dead' thread. This is a discussion regarding FL's content. The type of content; data size and style. The server's UI. Its loading times. The gamemode and its mechanics, etc.

In the last couple of years of development, I feel as though FL has been moving in a hypermodern direction, losing its charm and character. With some DarkRP-esque implementations and styles that perhaps another CityRP community has, I'm sure a lot of the community, especially FL's veterans, are not happy.

Hopefully, this thread won't get closed for 'toxicity' when we're all having a constructive and importantly relevant conversation for the team can see our opinions on this topic before any big changes or decisions are made that we may not be happy with. This way, we can do our best to have FL move forward in a way we see fit from the state it's in today.

Below is some stuff I wrote on this topic in a previous discussion to get this one rolling and to see what some of you think.

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Talking about what content should be on the server is where things get a little more subjective. Thankfully, no matter how subjective our opinions on the topic may be, we can identify what works and doesn't work by how well the server runs and how the community populates the server long-term after an update and engaging with it. For me, and I'm sure most agree, remaining faithful to a simplistic Evo City map style, Half-Life 2 and CS:S content will always be beneficial to the server - with minor exceptions every now and then that regard expanding roleplay opportunities, immersion, ease of play, etc, without impacting some of the things outlined below.

Load-in times for the server should be as short as realistically possible, especially for players that don’t already have the content installed and enabled. This includes reducing the amount of high data/high-resolution textures and models. An important example of this is cars. High-resolution modern cars cause the server to lag, reducing the FPS of players in the areas or while observing these cars. Server and gamemode stability performance needs to be the outright priority. This means reducing the number of content containing high-resolution textures and models as much as possible without taking any of the core essence of the Fearless RP experience. Modernisation has been an identified issue in development for the last few years. When we move towards implementing content in updates that modernise the server, the server population always decreases over time. People don’t play Garry’s Mod to have a AAA ultra high-res gaming experience. It’s supposed to have grittiness; it’s built on the same engine as Half-Life 2. All modernisation does is take away from the critical user-server stability and performance and also the character of a 14-year-old CityRP gamemode. The members of the community who love the server most and care about its state fell in love with it because of its charm, its ability to be wonderfully comedic at times, while also allowing for intricate roleplays to take place. The gamemode and its content need to remain simple. Otherwise, well, another City RP community is the direction we’ll go in.

We should be a little more self-aware and acknowledge there's nothing wrong in realising and admitting that an implementation didn't work, so long as something is done about it, such as reverting implementations that hypermodernise the server. The kind of updates that the community does appreciate address bringing structure and complexity to the gamemode. Additions that don’t take away from a stable user-server experience or add unnecessary gimmicks, but rather optimise the gamemode and server performance, expand immersion and increase roleplay opportunities. These include the pass/associate system, the contraband theft system, the marketplace (though admittedly decreasing some player interaction),... Avgard's player model update from 2016... , FLAMS, maybe? The old UI definitely. However, examples of things that the community doesn't appreciate include the car damage system. It has a DarkRP-esque UI/HUD, it's clucky and gimmicky and too time-consuming and annoying for a semi-serious CityRP server. I understand it was done to give mechanics more to do - so the right intent is there. Perhaps revert it to how it was but change toolboxes so that all they do is make the car drivable, and if the player wants to drive the car at full capability then they can take it to the mechanic. If there isn't one, then take it to the same place as we do now to fix it, have players pay a small fee, and wait 10 seconds or something for it to be fixed and off you pop. No spare parts, no localised damage system, no waiting 5 minutes. Now, I touch something with my car, there goes the engine! As I said, it's a Garry's mod server. We don't expect a AAA experience. Cars fly about the map and most are hard to control. Revert it. Another example is the kevlar/health regeneration system revamp. It's too clunky and tedious. The HUD for whenever I use something is fat-in-your-face in the middle of the screen. Put loading times in a small rectangle above the hunger bar like we used to have. It was clean and worked fine. Why was it changed? Revert it. And so on for any other implementation in the last couple of years that is tedious for the player to interact with, takes away from the fun of playing the server, hypermodernise the server, or is too clunky or out of place. The gamemode and its content need to remain simple.

The population also drops on the server when the map is too often changed. This is because players spend time making dupes for roleplays or bases or what have you, only to have the map switched, forcing players to go back to building or coming up with roleplay ideas rather than having peace-of-mind fun on the server. This is particularly damaging to clans or organisations that are still in the midst of setting up their clan and discourages members of the community from having the motivation to engage on the server. I must admit, I was for the monthly or quarterly map switches to keep things fresh but in hindsight, it didn’t work. Whatever happens, stick to a couple of maps that the community approves of which meet the above criteria. Keep a given map in place for as long as possible, until the community voices boredom and the population starts to decrease over time - but ensure it’s the map in place at fault and nothing else. A map change would only happen once a year or so to keep things fresh while maintaining familiarity with the FL DNA throughout the map’s run. Another issue with introducing maps we haven’t had before, or adding any more than three to the list of ‘approved FL maps’ is the advanced duplicator spawn lists. Finding dupes I made for v5p on the v2d spawnlist and pines dupes on v4b1 is annoying as hell and just makes development seem incompetent - even though it's such a small thing. So keep the things we approve of in place. Don’t fix things that aren’t broken, so don’t reintroduce the map vote system unless it takes place over the span of a year and is kept only to the maps on the list to ensure dupes’ continuity over the maps.

Last but not least, the guns and combat systems. FL lost a lot of its population after the more aggressive and underground-type roleplayers were screwed over due to several updates. Most notably, the switch from madcow to CW. I also admit I was not at first completely against the switch. After so many years with the same guns, perhaps it's best to become skillful with another set of guns? Maybe it could have made the server feel fresh and fun to play again? Hindsight allows me to see why madcow is preferable and why it's loved by myself and the rest of the community. Madcow and its gun mechanics are plain and simple, built for source engine and felt natural in FL’s gamemode. Whereas CW is clunky and complex, gimmicky, hypermodern for our server and feels unnatural. It is obvious to me now why we never had an issue with the type of guns we used before the switch. Revert it. It’s okay to be wrong, just realise it and fix it. The server needs madcow guns back how they were a few years ago, slightly nerfing the range for the M3. Reintroduce stealing people’s contraband. Revert being able to place breaches on absolutely everything; rendering molotovs useless. With each of these damaging implementations we've had, half of the playerbase quits. A playerbase full of FL veterans, people that can be looked up to, and help lead the community as shown in the past.

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There are other things where discussion is to be had. How we can encourage people to create and interact with clans and that system. Milestones. Farming, etc. But none of these extra bits and bobs can be had if there's no one on to enjoy the server. The basics should be prioritised. And in my opinion, work needs to be done to keep the server simple and reintroduce its lost charm.

There is also the economic reform that is being discussed within the team. Here's the link to its Google Doc that JoeJoe provided for people to see if you haven't already:

>Proposed economic reform<

[Awestruck]

- snip -

I appreciate you putting effort into your post and offering your opinion on matters like a decent human-being.

I wholly agree that load-in times can have a huge effect on new player retention and that content should indeed be kept light. The last time I did a content review was mid-2019 and although probably heavily outdated and inaccurate now, it took me 19 minutes and 21 seconds to join the server on a fresh install (averaging 2.9 MB/s download speed). However, after having all the content, the subsequent joins only took me ~49 seconds. I will likely do another one of these soon to gauge current data.

Speaking of subjectivity, the matter of vehicles is one that would require a fair amount of discussion as it's something I'm not sure everyone will agree with you on and it's a fairly large feature of the game-mode now.

I can also agree with you that having the timer in the middle of your screen like that for some of the newer functionality is clunky. It should be more inline with our UI design for a more seamless playing experience instead of looking cheap and getting in the way (sorry TASSIA). I'm not sure why that wasn't done in the first place but, there was likely some issues there (as there is with a lot of the codebase).

It's very hard to determine the reason for lower player retention yet, very easy to blame whatever. Whilst map swaps can be annoying for some, they are almost never done without community support anyway, at least not in my time. Your points about damaging factors are valid, but the premise for them perhaps not.

In regards to your advanced dupe folders, some maps have the same dimensions for some dupes. I too have had this issue where I try to spawn a dupe and it's not where I expect it to go. I can't say much else on this as it's not really a big issue but, I wouldn't say it's a case of incompetency.

Guns and combat systems are things that have been changed for the betterment of the server and to say that FL has lost a lot of it's population because of these is yet another scapegoat and a reason often used by the loud minority. Regardless of these updates there have been multiple times when we have had a full server and good population in general. Whilst I do miss abusing med-kit spamming, it was essentially game-breaking. The same goes for the Contraband-stealing which was also incredibly broken. Whilst not an out-of-picture idea, the implementation that it was given at the start was just not fit for work and was instantly abused (not by rules standard of course, but in terms of game mechanic and stupid money-gain).

I'll happily give my own personal opinion on weapons. I miss MadCow weapons. They were fun and easy to use. However, it's been a while since I've seen any sort of suggestions about reverting them. Only discussions, but never any actual suggestion to get proper input in a poll (we do have a whole setup for suggestions linked to development workflow, so the suggestions sub-forum is important).

[B33n]

To be honest with you, anyone complaining about modernisation of the server for the sake of preserving their own nostalgic memories is simply holding back progress. Because the servers doing so well with the old stuff, right guys?

Glad you bought up the combat system. Mad cow has aged like shit and if the server were still running mad cow in 2022 people would assume this server is cheap. However, CW 2.0 blows for Fearless in my opinion and it’s astonishing that anyone would ever use it for DarkRP, it’s dick pumped to astronomical proportions and the filesize is huge due to its 10K HD reload ASMR audio. It’s hard to have immersive RP on a server when everytime I kill someone with my MP5 they get launched into Orbit. Evo cities first successful space program will be done with a magnum round MP5K magdump. The player movement speed with CW is also astronomically bad.

Tl;dr fix for bad combat system:
- Restrict player movement speed when they’re carrying weapons and even more so when they’re aiming down sights (actually when they’re playing at all, I’ve seen people outrun cars)
- If the servers hard stuck on using CW 2, at least use GOOD CW2 addons, not the default one.
- Balance the weapons to avoid the AR15, Benelli and VSS meta.

All successful RP servers are either RP void DarkRP servers with no real RP or ultra serious RP servers. As proven by fearless, being in between these aspects doesn’t work. Fearless is more seriousRP than half the seriousRP servers in existence.

I’d rather fearless modernise entirely than be left in 2010 as people would play this more if so.

[Pollux]

While you bring up many good points, in the end they are your opinion and you have to recognise that. You have to understand that while you loved the old system, equally others hated it. Our job is to balance the two and find a way forward that the majority likes, and so far that has been with more "modern" features. We haven't even done too much in regards to making FL more "modern", the gamemode is very much still the same from years ago and plays like the same. Depending on who you ask, that's either a good or bad thing.

One thing which I can objectively say is the majority of players like the direction we're going in, just to give you a bit of data we did a Survey last year while we were planning out a potential new gamemode to see what people like.

People were asked to rate how much they liked certain features of the gamemode on a scale, here are some of the ones you mentioned as things that need to change:




By far the majority of the community either didn't care or liked it, it's also important to note that Kevlar had further refinements after its release to make it better such as hot swapping with a single key and being able to move. While we appreciate any feedback, the reason we've always never implemented changes many rant about is because the majority of players who do play like what we've done. Nostalgia can sometimes be extremely strong and blind people to the issue FL had in the past, for example a lot of people forget that the old vehicle system killed you if you crashed at 10mph - that simply is not fun gameplay. A lot also tend to forget that the old combat system was just a numbers game as to who had more health kits, a lot of people don't miss the weapons but rather miss the fact they were invulnerable. Even if we did swap back to the old weapons, it'd play out very similar to how current combat does due to health kit spam being gone. This isn't to say the current system is perfect, it's more of a step in the right direction and needs further refinement to make it more fun.

While we have increased content, you also have to take into account that download speeds aren't what they once were. We've had an explosive growth in internet speeds, with many having even gigabit speeds available now. This means download times are less of a concern now. The situation we're in now is complicated especially with props, as we can't trim content without also breaking old dupes. With cars, we don't have a choice. We have to use what is on the workshop and nowadays they're all much higher in quality. Cars are also a major part of FL now, so it's not a bad thing if content is taken up by things people actually like. There's minor changes we can do to improve this such as replacing cars which aren't used, but there won't be a massive reduction.

The truth is that FL has to adapt to survive, and this means we have to change things for better or worse. We don't add features for the sake of it, if we could survive without changing anything then we would but that simply isn't an option. Many people who play FL have thousands of hours and want change which is something we're doing.

Nothing is perfect, but all the data we have tells us the direction we're going in is good. We are already looking into refining content (especially cars) and making more changes to weapons to make it more fun, as that is the most important factor in the end. We're looking at what we can do to try and provide a better economy to provide players with more things to do, which is currently our biggest priority as that's another factor the survey showed us. 



Out of 104 responses, only 8 want things to be the same as they are now in regards to the economy and market. We're going to try a few changes which will bring us to a more partially player-run system with essentials being similar to how they are now. It's very much going to be an experiment, but it's something we have to try. It's something different to all the other servers out there and something the community has indicted they want, which is exciting to us.

We're not going to try and please everyone as that is impossible, some people will obviously hate the things we do and others will love it. The only important thing to us in the end is making sure whatever we do is fun and ensure our vision lines up with the community.

[B33n]

While you bring up many good points, in the end they are your opinion and you have to recognise that. You have to understand that while you loved the old system, equally others hated it. Our job is to balance the two and find a way forward that the majority likes, and so far that has been with more "modern" features. We haven't even done too much in regards to making FL more "modern", the gamemode is very much still the same from years ago and plays like the same. Depending on who you ask, that's either a good or bad thing.

One thing which I can objectively say is the majority of players like the direction we're going in, just to give you a bit of data we did a Survey last year while we were planning out a potential new gamemode to see what people like.

People were asked to rate how much they liked certain features of the gamemode on a scale, here are some of the ones you mentioned as things that need to change:




By far the majority of the community either didn't care or liked it, it's also important to note that Kevlar had further refinements after its release to make it better such as hot swapping with a single key and being able to move. While we appreciate any feedback, the reason we've always never implemented changes many rant about is because the majority of players who do play like what we've done. Nostalgia can sometimes be extremely strong and blind people to the issue FL had in the past, for example a lot of people forget that the old vehicle system killed you if you crashed at 10mph - that simply is not fun gameplay. A lot also tend to forget that the old combat system was just a numbers game as to who had more health kits, a lot of people don't miss the weapons but rather miss the fact they were invulnerable. Even if we did swap back to the old weapons, it'd play out very similar to how current combat does due to health kit spam being gone. This isn't to say the current system is perfect, it's more of a step in the right direction and needs further refinement to make it more fun.

While we have increased content, you also have to take into account that download speeds aren't what they once were. We've had an explosive growth in internet speeds, with many having even gigabit speeds available now. This means download times are less of a concern now. The situation we're in now is complicated especially with props, as we can't trim content without also breaking old dupes. With cars, we don't have a choice. We have to use what is on the workshop and nowadays they're all much higher in quality. Cars are also a major part of FL now, so it's not a bad thing if content is taken up by things people actually like. There's minor changes we can do to improve this such as replacing cars which aren't used, but there won't be a massive reduction.

The truth is that FL has to adapt to survive, and this means we have to change things for better or worse. We don't add features for the sake of it, if we could survive without changing anything then we would but that simply isn't an option. Many people who play FL have thousands of hours and want change which is something we're doing.

Nothing is perfect, but all the data we have tells us the direction we're going in is good. We are already looking into refining content (especially cars) and making more changes to weapons to make it more fun, as that is the most important factor in the end. We're looking at what we can do to try and provide a better economy to provide players with more things to do, which is currently our biggest priority as that's another factor the survey showed us. 



Out of 104 responses, only 8 want things to be the same as they are now in regards to the economy and market. We're going to try a few changes which will bring us to a more partially player-run system with essentials being similar to how they are now. It's very much going to be an experiment, but it's something we have to try. It's something different to all the other servers out there and something the community has indicted they want, which is exciting to us.

We're not going to try and please everyone as that is impossible, some people will obviously hate the things we do and others will love it. The only important thing to us in the end is making sure whatever we do is fun and ensure our vision lines up with the community.

Curious as to how many of these players still play or remain active within the community, or if their opinions will remain the same. 

The server should be doing everything it can to gain players, not retain the ones who have made it abundantly clear that they can’t play, or simply don’t want to come back anytime soon. Retention of old players simply isnt working.

Revamping the game mode and it’s content to make it more appealing for newer players > Keeping the game mode the same because of a survey taken when the server had consistent players.

Make another survey and make it so it’s taken in game.

[Jimmy The]

While you bring up many good points, in the end they are your opinion and you have to recognise that. You have to understand that while you loved the old system, equally others hated it. Our job is to balance the two and find a way forward that the majority likes, and so far that has been with more "modern" features. We haven't even done too much in regards to making FL more "modern", the gamemode is very much still the same from years ago and plays like the same. Depending on who you ask, that's either a good or bad thing.

One thing which I can objectively say is the majority of players like the direction we're going in, just to give you a bit of data we did a Survey last year while we were planning out a potential new gamemode to see what people like.

People were asked to rate how much they liked certain features of the gamemode on a scale, here are some of the ones you mentioned as things that need to change:




By far the majority of the community either didn't care or liked it, it's also important to note that Kevlar had further refinements after its release to make it better such as hot swapping with a single key and being able to move. While we appreciate any feedback, the reason we've always never implemented changes many rant about is because the majority of players who do play like what we've done. Nostalgia can sometimes be extremely strong and blind people to the issue FL had in the past, for example a lot of people forget that the old vehicle system killed you if you crashed at 10mph - that simply is not fun gameplay. A lot also tend to forget that the old combat system was just a numbers game as to who had more health kits, a lot of people don't miss the weapons but rather miss the fact they were invulnerable. Even if we did swap back to the old weapons, it'd play out very similar to how current combat does due to health kit spam being gone. This isn't to say the current system is perfect, it's more of a step in the right direction and needs further refinement to make it more fun.

While we have increased content, you also have to take into account that download speeds aren't what they once were. We've had an explosive growth in internet speeds, with many having even gigabit speeds available now. This means download times are less of a concern now. The situation we're in now is complicated especially with props, as we can't trim content without also breaking old dupes. With cars, we don't have a choice. We have to use what is on the workshop and nowadays they're all much higher in quality. Cars are also a major part of FL now, so it's not a bad thing if content is taken up by things people actually like. There's minor changes we can do to improve this such as replacing cars which aren't used, but there won't be a massive reduction.

The truth is that FL has to adapt to survive, and this means we have to change things for better or worse. We don't add features for the sake of it, if we could survive without changing anything then we would but that simply isn't an option. Many people who play FL have thousands of hours and want change which is something we're doing.

Nothing is perfect, but all the data we have tells us the direction we're going in is good. We are already looking into refining content (especially cars) and making more changes to weapons to make it more fun, as that is the most important factor in the end. We're looking at what we can do to try and provide a better economy to provide players with more things to do, which is currently our biggest priority as that's another factor the survey showed us. 



Out of 104 responses, only 8 want things to be the same as they are now in regards to the economy and market. We're going to try a few changes which will bring us to a more partially player-run system with essentials being similar to how they are now. It's very much going to be an experiment, but it's something we have to try. It's something different to all the other servers out there and something the community has indicted they want, which is exciting to us.

We're not going to try and please everyone as that is impossible, some people will obviously hate the things we do and others will love it. The only important thing to us in the end is making sure whatever we do is fun and ensure our vision lines up with the community.

The only people who have filled out that survey are the remaining few who are left. Straight up bias survey so obviously those are the people are going to be the ones in favour as everyone has left due to the direction you've turned FL.

[Pollux]

-snip-

The only people who have filled out that survey are the remaining few who are left. Straight up bias survey so obviously those are the people are going to be the ones in favour as everyone has left due to the direction you've turned FL.

I think you're forgetting that the survey wasn't anonymous and we had a lot of responses to it. We had a good mix of both people who played at the time and those who didn't and had a question to separate the two. If I remember correctly, even you filled it in.



I'm not sure what else you expect us to do, survey the people who don't want to fill out the survey? Go reach out to every single person who ever played FL? The data doesn't lie and is our best source of information in regards to what we're doing and what direction we need to go in. At the time of this survey we did regularly have a full server too, so I would consider it pretty accurate to what people who actually play want and also gave us insight as to why people stopped playing (which in almost all cases, was due to the lack of time and no other reason). The amount of responses is also aligned with all the surveys we've done in years past, so there's nothing abnormal about this one compared to those.

I'm sure you could argue all day about why our data is wrong and why your views on what FL needs to do are 100% right, that's your opinion and our job is to sort through it all to determine what the majority of the community who play or are interested in playing want.

[Vauld]

It's interesting to see these conversations. I deal with a lot of this at my my day job. Ambiguity.

There is no black or white answer as to how to "Fix" FL's problem(s). There is no single thing that would solve the problems. There's a lot of data points, and a lot of chatter.

I think it's fair to say something drastic needs to be done at this point, I think what FL lacks is a leader. Someone needs to look at all of this, accept that there's going to be a high level of uncertainty in any decision - but to look at what's in front of them and make a decisive and transparent choice. In literally ANY direction.

Right now we have analysis paralysis. The key is to make a choice and pivot quickly if it doesn't work. I think another hurdle is that we're so far down this rabbit hole if we pivot now it's still going to take a while to see output.

All I know is that there needs to be a single person who looks at all of this any makes a decision, even if it's not the right one - at least try to take control of this situation, otherwise it's going to be a slow grind into oblivion.

[B33n]

If you don’t want fearless to have a string of updates changing the game to be more appealing to players who currently play on other servers which currently have a very similar Playstyle to fearless but more feature packed and enjoyable, because those communities took that direction which gave them further success, then you’re prioritising your own nostalgia over the integrity of the server, anchoring the thing you’re trying to save as the server sinks beneath the depths far below servers like “EPICRP FNAF DARKRP | BITCOIN | M9K | 10 MILL START | HIRING STAFF”.

To put it simply, what is nostalgic to some is old and dated for others.

Arguments like “Garrys mod is a dead game”, “People don’t have time to play gmod rp anymore”, “CityRP is dying” are all entirely wrong, this is one of the only OG CityRP Servers suffering this fate. I can bring up the gametracker graphs of activity on competing servers and entirely disprove these points. Even a particular DarkRP shitehole who’s name begins with Z has managed to bounce back, ironically, Literally as a CityRP Server.

Garrys mod developers are literally pushing the boundaries of this game to a point inconceivable to even the most talented Gmod developer this time 5 years ago.

I speak to people who played this server 10 years ago and not a single one knew this was even still a thing. It’s inaccessible and unappealing to the gmod community. I haven’t a shadow of doubt in my mind that this server can be turned around for the better, just not like this. All the ideas people have are dead weights and temporary solutions.

Changing maps, will not bring players back regularly on its own, because people will look at the new map, then realise it’s the same game still and leave.
Resetting the economy on a game that literally sells money is a shit idea and would only drive players away and leave less competition for other players to shit up millions of dollars in a week of grinding simply because there is no threat to their lives.
Adding new weapons would only work to change the metas of the game rather than changing the game style.

What would bring in players? Making the gamemode more feature packed and unique, and getting the word out about fearless, allowing more people to know about it and play the game more. The 2 key points of any successful gmod servers is there needs to be unique experiences 

Seeing this fairly large group of people talk about how the servers dead and what they should do to fix it is entirely ironic, you can fix the game by mutually agreeing to play it regularly lol, if it’s so fun how it is, where the fuck are y’all at? If you’re complaining that the game was ruined by updates, you are batshit insane. If you had your way, this would probably be a thread called “Possibility of bringing back the FearlessRP server?” Talking about how much fun we all had here until it shut down  5 years ago.

Jessixa for community management ASAP pronto.