TheSiphon
#11
(06-29-2020, 08:24 PM)Dimitris Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 07:56 PM)Joe Joe Wrote: As Police during the situation the main reason for arrest didn't seem to actually be the arming up or use of ammunition, instead the wreckless driving; indicated by 'Firstly, you were wrecklessly driving". Now in many cases the loading of ammunition can be seen as a reason to search/raid because if not there would be no sound effects for loading firearms and seeing as the main brunt of the arrest which I'd like to point out was for 2 minutes I do not personally see any powergaming infringements. Unless any other evidence can be provided I fail to see how this is Powergaming.

Hello Joe Joe, from what I can tell you did not really bother reading all replies and checking screenshots, reckless driving is most of the times not a reason to arrest someone, also the main issue here is the way Siphon acted upon information he could in no way have gathered in that short time of period. Also your involvement to the situation was little to none, for the most part you seemed to be afk as I can see from the chat logs I gathered since Siphon requested you to accept the warrant multiple times and it took you a good 5-6 minutes until you did. So I am not sure why you are acting as if you really know the situation that well.

With all due respect; wreckless driving is a valid arrest reason as I would arrest for it and before you make premature assumptions there was a raid going on which I was a part of and Siphon knew was going on as he had NLR there so he could have been certain the ammunition wasn't from that raid. Maybe Siphon should have left the arming up out of the warrant however even if he didn't its not a violation of the rules just a slight oversight of the situation the main reason for arrest was wreckless driving as he stated and so did the warrant. Unless any other evidence can be provided it will be denied.
Regards,
Joe²
Fearless Administrator
[img=0x0]https://i.imgur.com/ZcGmEFM.png[/img]

Have I helped you out? Rep me >Here<
#12
(06-29-2020, 07:57 PM)Dimitris Wrote: Well no. The examples you are giving have no connection to out situation what so ever. When you see an armed man you do actually see his face so once you manage getting to him you do quite literally know its him. In this situation you saw absolutely nothing. All that you heard was the reloading sound and as I mentioned 3 times above, there was an on going raid right next to us ( At apartments and park was also right next where you also had no vision of ) Yet you were determined it's me. 

Anyways it's gotten to the point where I had to repeat myself on all my posts because for some reason you've decided to still ignore most of the questions I raised most likely cause you have no real answer to them, to me the situation is quite obvious. I will be waiting for an admin's response.

If you mean the "Why was no ammo found" question, I've been trying to explain the answer.
  • In a normal situation with other possible suspects, the answer would have been: "Someone else had it". In that case, I would not have put the blame on you, as I did not have enough evidence to claim it was you.
  • But, if there is only one possible suspect, then the question of "Why was no ammo found" becomes irrelevant, as it cannot be answered with "Someone else had it". The sound has to have a human source, and the park/backstreet weren't valid answers in my opinion due to the closeness of the sound when I heard it, the distance to the backstreet was too long, and the park/streets were empty without any other suspects in sight.
  • Since you were the only possible suspect and the charge automatically fell on you. In your case, the answer could have been anything really. The only answer that it could not have been was "Someone else had it", as there was no other suspect who could have been the source of the sound. But like I said, the answer becomes irrelevant with only one possible suspect. 
Hopefully, this way of explaining my reasoning was a bit more clear. It doesn't matter "Why the tool of the crime was not found", since you were the only person who could have committed said crime. I wasn't using OOC information, I wasn't powergaming. The reason why I didn't find ammo simply does not matter, because you are the only possible suspect. 

If there were 1 or more people with you, and you were the only one with the criminal job, then arresting you for the ammo would have been metagaming and powergaming. You were alone, so there was no need for metagaming or powergaming. All the evidence needed was acquired in-character, and it was enough to justify the arrest in my opinion.
[Image: DxLVliJ.png]

Feel free to add reputation or not. Have a nice day!
#13
(06-29-2020, 08:26 PM)Joe Joe Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 08:24 PM)Dimitris Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 07:56 PM)Joe Joe Wrote: As Police during the situation the main reason for arrest didn't seem to actually be the arming up or use of ammunition, instead the wreckless driving; indicated by 'Firstly, you were wrecklessly driving". Now in many cases the loading of ammunition can be seen as a reason to search/raid because if not there would be no sound effects for loading firearms and seeing as the main brunt of the arrest which I'd like to point out was for 2 minutes I do not personally see any powergaming infringements. Unless any other evidence can be provided I fail to see how this is Powergaming.

Hello Joe Joe, from what I can tell you did not really bother reading all replies and checking screenshots, reckless driving is most of the times not a reason to arrest someone, also the main issue here is the way Siphon acted upon information he could in no way have gathered in that short time of period. Also your involvement to the situation was little to none, for the most part you seemed to be afk as I can see from the chat logs I gathered since Siphon requested you to accept the warrant multiple times and it took you a good 5-6 minutes until you did. So I am not sure why you are acting as if you really know the situation that well.

With all due respect; wreckless driving is a valid arrest reason as I would arrest for it and before you make premature assumptions there was a raid going on which I was a part of and Siphon knew was going on as he had NLR there so he could have been certain the ammunition wasn't from that raid. Maybe Siphon should have left the arming up out of the warrant however even if he didn't its not a violation of the rules just a slight oversight of the situation the main reason for arrest was wreckless driving as he stated and so did the warrant. Unless any other evidence can be provided it will be denied.

Joe Joe I know you are a very intelligent man so your reply leads me to believe that you are intentionally playing dumb on me. What does a small oversight mean? Siphon had no possible way of knowing it was me that used the ammo, he searched me and found nothing, however he still arrested me for it as he used his OOC knowledge to know that ammo does not show on the body search. When ever I asked Siphon why he continued with the arrest I never really got an answer. 

Also the reason I took this on the forums was mostly to get an unbiased conclusion on this. Both you here on the forums and ryan in game seemed quite desperate to be the ones to control the outcome of this situation. I know you are most likely not going to do this but I would like to request someone else to handle this PR as I feel you are being biased due to your friendship with Siphon.
Kind Regards,
Dimitris



[Image: gG1wIDB.gif]
                                     
#14
(06-29-2020, 08:46 PM)TheSiphon Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 07:57 PM)Dimitris Wrote: Well no. The examples you are giving have no connection to out situation what so ever. When you see an armed man you do actually see his face so once you manage getting to him you do quite literally know its him. In this situation you saw absolutely nothing. All that you heard was the reloading sound and as I mentioned 3 times above, there was an on going raid right next to us ( At apartments and park was also right next where you also had no vision of ) Yet you were determined it's me. 

Anyways it's gotten to the point where I had to repeat myself on all my posts because for some reason you've decided to still ignore most of the questions I raised most likely cause you have no real answer to them, to me the situation is quite obvious. I will be waiting for an admin's response.

If you mean the "Why was no ammo found" question, I've been trying to explain the answer.
  • In a normal situation with other possible suspects, the answer would have been: "Someone else had it". In that case, I would not have put the blame on you, as I did not have enough evidence to claim it was you.
  • But, if there is only one possible suspect, then the question of "Why was no ammo found" becomes irrelevant, as it cannot be answered with "Someone else had it". The sound has to have a human source, and the park/backstreet weren't valid answers in my opinion due to the closeness of the sound when I heard it, the distance to the backstreet was too long, and the park/streets were empty without any other suspects in sight.
  • Since you were the only possible suspect and the charge automatically fell on you. In your case, the answer could have been anything really. The only answer that it could not have been was "Someone else had it", as there was no other suspect who could have been the source of the sound. But like I said, the answer becomes irrelevant with only one possible suspect. 
Hopefully, this way of explaining my reasoning was a bit more clear. It doesn't matter "Why the tool of the crime was not found", since you were the only person who could have committed said crime. I wasn't using OOC information, I wasn't powergaming. The reason why I didn't find ammo simply does not matter, because you are the only possible suspect. 

If there were 1 or more people with you, and you were the only one with the criminal job, then arresting you for the ammo would have been metagaming and powergaming. You were alone, so there was no need for metagaming or powergaming. All the evidence needed was acquired in-character, and it was enough to justify the arrest in my opinion.

I replied to that so many times. In apartments ( Right next to us ) there was an on going raid, the sound could have easily been from that area, or from the park which you had no vision of.
Kind Regards,
Dimitris



[Image: gG1wIDB.gif]
                                     
#15
(06-29-2020, 08:58 PM)Dimitris Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 08:46 PM)TheSiphon Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 07:57 PM)Dimitris Wrote: Well no. The examples you are giving have no connection to out situation what so ever. When you see an armed man you do actually see his face so once you manage getting to him you do quite literally know its him. In this situation you saw absolutely nothing. All that you heard was the reloading sound and as I mentioned 3 times above, there was an on going raid right next to us ( At apartments and park was also right next where you also had no vision of ) Yet you were determined it's me. 

Anyways it's gotten to the point where I had to repeat myself on all my posts because for some reason you've decided to still ignore most of the questions I raised most likely cause you have no real answer to them, to me the situation is quite obvious. I will be waiting for an admin's response.

If you mean the "Why was no ammo found" question, I've been trying to explain the answer.
  • In a normal situation with other possible suspects, the answer would have been: "Someone else had it". In that case, I would not have put the blame on you, as I did not have enough evidence to claim it was you.
  • But, if there is only one possible suspect, then the question of "Why was no ammo found" becomes irrelevant, as it cannot be answered with "Someone else had it". The sound has to have a human source, and the park/backstreet weren't valid answers in my opinion due to the closeness of the sound when I heard it, the distance to the backstreet was too long, and the park/streets were empty without any other suspects in sight.
  • Since you were the only possible suspect and the charge automatically fell on you. In your case, the answer could have been anything really. The only answer that it could not have been was "Someone else had it", as there was no other suspect who could have been the source of the sound. But like I said, the answer becomes irrelevant with only one possible suspect. 
Hopefully, this way of explaining my reasoning was a bit more clear. It doesn't matter "Why the tool of the crime was not found", since you were the only person who could have committed said crime. I wasn't using OOC information, I wasn't powergaming. The reason why I didn't find ammo simply does not matter, because you are the only possible suspect. 

If there were 1 or more people with you, and you were the only one with the criminal job, then arresting you for the ammo would have been metagaming and powergaming. You were alone, so there was no need for metagaming or powergaming. All the evidence needed was acquired in-character, and it was enough to justify the arrest in my opinion.

I replied to that so many times. In apartments ( Right next to us ) there was an on going raid, the sound could have easily been from that area, or from the park which you had no vision of.

As I said, those sources were not suitable in my opinion. The sound was definitely close enough not to be the park and certainly not to backstreet. You were the only suitable suspect, combine that with you already breaking other laws and acting very strangely by leaving the car in the middle of the road and hiding from the view a bit. The blame fell on you, you were the only suitable suspect for the ammo loading.
[Image: DxLVliJ.png]

Feel free to add reputation or not. Have a nice day!
#16
(06-29-2020, 09:01 PM)TheSiphon Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 08:58 PM)Dimitris Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 08:46 PM)TheSiphon Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 07:57 PM)Dimitris Wrote: Well no. The examples you are giving have no connection to out situation what so ever. When you see an armed man you do actually see his face so once you manage getting to him you do quite literally know its him. In this situation you saw absolutely nothing. All that you heard was the reloading sound and as I mentioned 3 times above, there was an on going raid right next to us ( At apartments and park was also right next where you also had no vision of ) Yet you were determined it's me. 

Anyways it's gotten to the point where I had to repeat myself on all my posts because for some reason you've decided to still ignore most of the questions I raised most likely cause you have no real answer to them, to me the situation is quite obvious. I will be waiting for an admin's response.

If you mean the "Why was no ammo found" question, I've been trying to explain the answer.
  • In a normal situation with other possible suspects, the answer would have been: "Someone else had it". In that case, I would not have put the blame on you, as I did not have enough evidence to claim it was you.
  • But, if there is only one possible suspect, then the question of "Why was no ammo found" becomes irrelevant, as it cannot be answered with "Someone else had it". The sound has to have a human source, and the park/backstreet weren't valid answers in my opinion due to the closeness of the sound when I heard it, the distance to the backstreet was too long, and the park/streets were empty without any other suspects in sight.
  • Since you were the only possible suspect and the charge automatically fell on you. In your case, the answer could have been anything really. The only answer that it could not have been was "Someone else had it", as there was no other suspect who could have been the source of the sound. But like I said, the answer becomes irrelevant with only one possible suspect. 
Hopefully, this way of explaining my reasoning was a bit more clear. It doesn't matter "Why the tool of the crime was not found", since you were the only person who could have committed said crime. I wasn't using OOC information, I wasn't powergaming. The reason why I didn't find ammo simply does not matter, because you are the only possible suspect. 

If there were 1 or more people with you, and you were the only one with the criminal job, then arresting you for the ammo would have been metagaming and powergaming. You were alone, so there was no need for metagaming or powergaming. All the evidence needed was acquired in-character, and it was enough to justify the arrest in my opinion.

I replied to that so many times. In apartments ( Right next to us ) there was an on going raid, the sound could have easily been from that area, or from the park which you had no vision of.

As I said, those sources were not suitable in my opinion. The sound was definitely close enough not to be the park and certainly not to backstreet. You were the only suitable suspect, combine that with you already breaking other laws and acting very strangely by leaving the car in the middle of the road and hiding from the view a bit. The blame fell on you, you were the only suitable suspect for the ammo loading.

You never even considered them. As shown by the logs you somehow were determined from the very begging, but somehow the staff member dealing with this has missed that.
Kind Regards,
Dimitris



[Image: gG1wIDB.gif]
                                     
#17
(06-29-2020, 09:04 PM)Dimitris Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 09:01 PM)TheSiphon Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 08:58 PM)Dimitris Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 08:46 PM)TheSiphon Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 07:57 PM)Dimitris Wrote: Well no. The examples you are giving have no connection to out situation what so ever. When you see an armed man you do actually see his face so once you manage getting to him you do quite literally know its him. In this situation you saw absolutely nothing. All that you heard was the reloading sound and as I mentioned 3 times above, there was an on going raid right next to us ( At apartments and park was also right next where you also had no vision of ) Yet you were determined it's me. 

Anyways it's gotten to the point where I had to repeat myself on all my posts because for some reason you've decided to still ignore most of the questions I raised most likely cause you have no real answer to them, to me the situation is quite obvious. I will be waiting for an admin's response.

If you mean the "Why was no ammo found" question, I've been trying to explain the answer.
  • In a normal situation with other possible suspects, the answer would have been: "Someone else had it". In that case, I would not have put the blame on you, as I did not have enough evidence to claim it was you.
  • But, if there is only one possible suspect, then the question of "Why was no ammo found" becomes irrelevant, as it cannot be answered with "Someone else had it". The sound has to have a human source, and the park/backstreet weren't valid answers in my opinion due to the closeness of the sound when I heard it, the distance to the backstreet was too long, and the park/streets were empty without any other suspects in sight.
  • Since you were the only possible suspect and the charge automatically fell on you. In your case, the answer could have been anything really. The only answer that it could not have been was "Someone else had it", as there was no other suspect who could have been the source of the sound. But like I said, the answer becomes irrelevant with only one possible suspect. 
Hopefully, this way of explaining my reasoning was a bit more clear. It doesn't matter "Why the tool of the crime was not found", since you were the only person who could have committed said crime. I wasn't using OOC information, I wasn't powergaming. The reason why I didn't find ammo simply does not matter, because you are the only possible suspect. 

If there were 1 or more people with you, and you were the only one with the criminal job, then arresting you for the ammo would have been metagaming and powergaming. You were alone, so there was no need for metagaming or powergaming. All the evidence needed was acquired in-character, and it was enough to justify the arrest in my opinion.

I replied to that so many times. In apartments ( Right next to us ) there was an on going raid, the sound could have easily been from that area, or from the park which you had no vision of.

As I said, those sources were not suitable in my opinion. The sound was definitely close enough not to be the park and certainly not to backstreet. You were the only suitable suspect, combine that with you already breaking other laws and acting very strangely by leaving the car in the middle of the road and hiding from the view a bit. The blame fell on you, you were the only suitable suspect for the ammo loading.

You never even considered them. As shown by the logs you somehow were determined from the very begging, but somehow the staff member dealing with this has missed that.

It doesn't require elaborate investigation to rule out backstreet and park in my mind. Streets were empty, I heard the sound loud and close enough, which is why I decided you were the only possible suspect. Especially since you were already breaking laws and acting quite strangely.

The thread could go for ages, arguing about the same things over and over. 
I've stated my opinions as to why I concluded you to be the source of the ammo loading. I see them being valid and fair.
(Also it's getting late, so I'll check the thread in the morning)
[Image: DxLVliJ.png]

Feel free to add reputation or not. Have a nice day!
#18
(06-29-2020, 09:18 PM)TheSiphon Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 09:04 PM)Dimitris Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 09:01 PM)TheSiphon Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 08:58 PM)Dimitris Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 08:46 PM)TheSiphon Wrote: If you mean the "Why was no ammo found" question, I've been trying to explain the answer.
  • In a normal situation with other possible suspects, the answer would have been: "Someone else had it". In that case, I would not have put the blame on you, as I did not have enough evidence to claim it was you.
  • But, if there is only one possible suspect, then the question of "Why was no ammo found" becomes irrelevant, as it cannot be answered with "Someone else had it". The sound has to have a human source, and the park/backstreet weren't valid answers in my opinion due to the closeness of the sound when I heard it, the distance to the backstreet was too long, and the park/streets were empty without any other suspects in sight.
  • Since you were the only possible suspect and the charge automatically fell on you. In your case, the answer could have been anything really. The only answer that it could not have been was "Someone else had it", as there was no other suspect who could have been the source of the sound. But like I said, the answer becomes irrelevant with only one possible suspect. 
Hopefully, this way of explaining my reasoning was a bit more clear. It doesn't matter "Why the tool of the crime was not found", since you were the only person who could have committed said crime. I wasn't using OOC information, I wasn't powergaming. The reason why I didn't find ammo simply does not matter, because you are the only possible suspect. 

If there were 1 or more people with you, and you were the only one with the criminal job, then arresting you for the ammo would have been metagaming and powergaming. You were alone, so there was no need for metagaming or powergaming. All the evidence needed was acquired in-character, and it was enough to justify the arrest in my opinion.

I replied to that so many times. In apartments ( Right next to us ) there was an on going raid, the sound could have easily been from that area, or from the park which you had no vision of.

As I said, those sources were not suitable in my opinion. The sound was definitely close enough not to be the park and certainly not to backstreet. You were the only suitable suspect, combine that with you already breaking other laws and acting very strangely by leaving the car in the middle of the road and hiding from the view a bit. The blame fell on you, you were the only suitable suspect for the ammo loading.

You never even considered them. As shown by the logs you somehow were determined from the very begging, but somehow the staff member dealing with this has missed that.

It doesn't require elaborate investigation to rule out backstreet and park in my mind. Streets were empty, I heard the sound loud and close enough, which is why I decided you were the only possible suspect. Especially since you were already breaking laws and acting quite strangely.

The thread could go for ages, arguing about the same things over and over. 
I've stated my opinions as to why I concluded you to be the source of the ammo loading. I see them being valid and fair.
(Also it's getting late, so I'll check the thread in the morning)

The streets were not empty what so ever and Joe Joe can confirm this, at the time of the arrest there was a raid going on right next to us and all cops were there and an other 2-3 defenders. I do not understand why you are lying in the courthouse, don't you know it is against the forum rules?
Kind Regards,
Dimitris



[Image: gG1wIDB.gif]
                                     
#19
--| Denied |--
This PR has become a back and forth argument with little resolution regarding the actual problem, the outcome of this PR is based  on what has been provided. Now the equipping of ammunition is a valid reason to search people and yes as the accused did not find a gun maybe it shouldn't have been put in the reason, however, the accused did not arrest based on the grounds of ammunition but was included with the arrest for wreckless driving which is a valid arrest, now for the most part arrest should be kept in-character and the loading of ammunition by no means indicates the accused was powergaming; he did not plant that ammunition on you but as you were the only one in the vicinity it is a reasonable assumption that it was you doing it, the raid nearby would have had no effect as the distance between you and that raid was significant. I can understand your frustration with the situation but if the situation was on the grounds of you having a gun when you didn't maybe it would hold more weight however that is not what this situation is based upon. I discussed this not only myself but with other members of the team online including Ryan and Kippsee and this outcome was a unanimous decision.
Regards,
Joe²
Fearless Administrator
[img=0x0]https://i.imgur.com/ZcGmEFM.png[/img]

Have I helped you out? Rep me >Here<


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)