Fantastic rules and where to find them
#11
Yellow may not be the best colour to use Tounge
(Not everyone uses the dark theme)

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#12
(08-27-2022, 12:50 PM)Arkten Wrote: '(85487) You were already warned about bypassing OOC blacklists, twice. Stop.' ... just goes to show how far these rules can and will be stretched in their interpretation.

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Yours
Doctor Internet;

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Server Administrator, Community Moderator
#13
Heya, I've had a quick read over, and I thought I'd post some thoughts too.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 1.1 This must be prevented, however do not think the rule alone will do. You will still have to implement effective anti-cheat measures and clean, bug-free code. Don't skip that just because it is already forbidden.
I'm not sure if this is just general advice, but this is already done. It's not skipped.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 1.2 Scamming is a self-invented problem solvable with proper transaction mechanics. If the safety of my transaction entirely depends on dropping my item and hoping the correct person picks them up or having to pray the correct person stands in front of me when I press enter after typing '/givemoney 100000', then that system is bad and should be replaced immediately. Have each party list them items they want to exchange from their inventories and let each of them confirm twice before finalising the trade. It is not hard to understand for users but makes their transactions a lot safer. If the players still manage to get scammed (e.g. by dropping their items or blindly entrusting a stranger with all they have) then it is their own fault. There can and should not be a rule against player idiocy. Let them learn by their own mistakes.
Yes and no.
A system to allow player trading should be added, and in fact, was added with the cash register. Unfortunately, that also decimated player interaction, one of the big issues brought up by players.

However, not every instance of scamming can be "lol dumbass player did dumb thing", and while Elden Ring is popular, I don't think responding to every player complaint with "git gud" promotes a positive environment.
Perhaps other people can give more thoughts here.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 1.3 Enforcing one common language in IC hinders player interaction. While OOC should be in English for obvious reasons of not wanting to divide the entire server into multiple language fractions, there is no harm in two friends speaking their native language when they are together. It can even enhance roleplay: Imagine an officer trying to infiltrate a russian mob and all of them speak Russian. It really adds to the depth of the RP.
This being two-fold here, firstly, from a player interaction standpoint, if players can't understand each-other, there almost no interaction, aside from killing each-other. Try RPing on a French language server as a monolingual English native, I'm sure you'll see the issue.

Secondly, from an administration perspective, using non-English languages makes it very easy to obscure rule-breaking activity, whatever it is, from staff. I wish this was hypothetical.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 1.4 Why not shoot or lock players away that are annoying af is beyond me. This rule actively prevents RP by taking an IC nuisance and making it an OOC issue. If a micspammer is present, let the police lock them away. He will stop eventually and most of the time he will not see a player anyway if the players so decide. (Could also be an interesting demonstrationRP if the gov does'nt care about locking away lunatics).
Why do other arrested players need to listen to micspam?

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 1.5 Oh boy, what a fan favourite. I do not wish to engage in ideological warfare here, so I leave you to decide this on your own.
Eh, I'll be honest with what I've seen.
There were two sets of things which broke this rule.
One was slurs, and one was RP'd discrimination.

Slurs didn't add anything to most RP, and RP'd discrimination was so rare outside of the slurs that it was pretty close to non-existant. So far, I've not had a pro-discrimination supporter tell me what RP it is they were stopped from doing, and instead I get either "it limits RP" or something along the lines of free speech.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: Alternatively you can force them to take therapyRP for their suicidal behaviour or similar. No need to make a rule out of this.
Forced how?

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 2.4 ...
Hardline agree for me personally, however, this is a serious shift towards serious RP, which quite a few people here say they don't want, or have even argued for the reverting of such changes.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 2.6 By default you are as your playermodel suggests: A human. 'Roleplaying' aka pretending to be something different will land you in a psychiatry or jail for posing a danger to the public rather than on a roof with an admin yet preventing more RP.
Perhaps this is more a preventative measure, considering the people who used to RP as animals, would also clog @ and post many PRs if they were arrested for it. Could it be done with a more serious community? Perhaps, but that requires having a more serious community.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 2.7 How about you let the players do as they want? If casinos scam players, players will stop playing for money with them. It is simple as that. If someone blindly trusts someone else to have their best interest in mind, then that person is a fool and deserves what's coming to them. You could also have a police officer stationed there, to make sure stuff is not getting out hand (scamming-wise) who could then be bribed or similar. This is another rule actively preventing RP.
The RP of "I used a random number generator on my computer that you can't see any have no way of verifying said you lost your 2$m bet. Everyone else though, with your 500$ bet? You won." There's no way of reclaiming lost money ingame, and the consequences for the scammer already end there, with extremely limited cross-session persistance. Perhaps if we described it as landing a player an enormous, unlosable advantage, you'd see it more favourably.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 2.8 While there is no effective way of forcing players to forget their past lives, minimising information especially regarding player names/IDs can help prevent revenge killing. Then again, one could RP the brother who has just heard of the tragic death and is set out to kill the gangsters. All in all, I am unsure about the first bullet point. The other can be prevented with drawing a visible NLR circle a player may not enter and will be spawned outside of. If he can enter, then he should at least be warned that he is (probably) breaking NLR and admins will be notified about this event. They can remove the NLR and thus the circle and notifications for a player.
And we're now at a situation where the slain gangster's comrades come in to avenge their killers, ope and now the Police are here and ope you're back after you got killed and why don't we just go play CS:GO? The biggest point of this rule isn't equalising or fairness, but reducing the decent into TDM.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 3.1 Props should not be easily available and certainly not freezable. By having anyone be able to freeze a prop in the middle of everywhere, you introduce yourself to this problem. Make props cost some money so you cannot spam them, have a good prop limit (maybe even 0 at the start and increasing linearily to 20 with each hour). Make props freezable by admins only. You can then have donors or 500 hour players be able to freeze props without admin intervention. Stop having the physgun and toolgun (except adv duplicator) on the main server. That is build server only. You can still transport items via hands anyway. The only excuse I tolerate for keeping this rule is server performance.
We could have flags that admins could set to, to allow people to spawn in props.
Kinda like HL2 RP.

I appreciate the effort you've gone to here, but again, this is an extremely serious RP idea, which would also piss off a fuckload of people.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 3.3 Non-freezable props will be bound to gravity.
ok?

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: If non-realistic props/materials are banned anyways, why make them selectable? It may not look good, but if you allow me to select the material/prop then I will use it.
Because some materials look different, on different props, in different contexts, with different surroundings.
For example, a flashing, hot pink, reflective metal sheet might look out of place in a hospital, but on the floor of a disco, it wouldn't.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 3.4 Considering the government can destroy any props with breaches/molotovs anyway, they can also handle removing illicit structures in and around the city (yes, that includes 'gamemode vital features'). No need for admin intervention.
Government members and pass holders cannot use molotovs.
Breaches are required to be bought, so cannot be relied upon to be available.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 3.5 Non-freezable props are always rammable.
Weight tool.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 3.6 As much as I hate to admit this. Free prop building can be abused in a way that makes it impossible for an attacker to stand any chance. A reason why I think freezable props should have admin confirmation before being placed. Non-freezable doomforts do not exist however.
So we've got the issue where some aggressive RPers feel like they're targeted by admins, some feel as though rules have been added which are unfair to them, but we need to have an admin approve each time a build is placed?

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 4.1 What a way to kill aggRP. If you couldn't fill an entire army's worth of weaponry to magically pull out of your arse 10 seconds before you need them, there wouldn't be rampages going on. If there still is, it is the job of Police/SWAT to get things under control. Perfect RP opportunity. If a gov decides to openly execute citizens, then there is reason to overthrow it, making the gangsters the good guys suddenly. Make death meaningful and people will want to avoid risking their ingame lives. But considering death has virtually no consequence and inventories are filled with guns making them cheaper than water, you are begging for RDM to take place all the time. Again a temporary inventory might be a good solution. You do not need an RP reason to kill someone just like I do not need a reason to kill anyone IRL. I can just do it and my motives may never be uncovered. Only because there are actual heavy consequences am I deterred from doing so and the game should mimic just that.
To remove 1 rule, a rule which is pretty simple, "don't kill people for no reason", with some examples of good and bad reasons, we'd need to switch over to transient instead of permanent inventories, a huge change to a core system, essentially becoming a hyper-serious RP?
(Most serious RP servers only have PK'ing in certain situations)
If you get randomly killed, there's no Police online, you're away from the Police, or any number of different situations, the response is "fuck you, you lose, good day"?
Have I got that right?

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 4.2 Anyone can engage in a fight. As mentioned in 4.1, if death is meaningful people would not be so quick to walk into a firefight. If some merchant goes crazy and starts murdering people, then that is again a lot of potential for player interaction and good RP to take place, instead of preventing all of this with a rule.
This could be removed.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 4.3 But please get a map that does not have such a fault, so you can get rid of this rule as well.
A map without elevators?
So no evocity map, as I'm pretty sure they all have elevators.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 4.4 Just git gud. Yes, having a high ground is a good strategy that actual police and military forces use all the time. Why restrict it? Shoot them down with a sniper or throw up a smoke/gas/HE grenade (if these actually exists) or approach with the bulletproof SWAT Van.
Not everyone has a SWAT van, I don't think there are smoke, gas or HE grenades (I haven't played SWAT in a hot minute).

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: Gov could even pass a law disallowing building/basing/living on rooftops due to the history of police failures this has meant.
Pass a law disallowing it because the Police can't raid it.
So the Police can do what, raid it?

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: or the police could block entrance to such places entirely.
With the frozen props they don't have? Or are they going to station a cop outside each rooftop access permanently?

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 4.5 MAKE  DEATH  MEANINGFUL! If guns do good damage (as they would do especially on unarmoured citizens) then you do not need this rule. If they do not conform, kill them. The fact that death is actually preferable is the sole reason people disobey this rule.

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(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 5.1 Just kill the dictator. There is absolutely no reason for this to even exist as a thought.

This rule is in because cops wouldn't kill the dictator, and would just go along with the "breathing = arrest" laws which got added.
I'd agree if this was a serious RP community which could handle the responsibility of being a dictator, and upholding RP standards.

That's not the community we have.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 5.2 Let the president do what he wants. He knows the consequences. If he does not care much about his presidency, consider doing him the favour of killing him. If death would be more meaningful he would also naturally avoid it, although he already does more so than other jobs. If everyone loves the president and harming him is unthinkable, then why should he need security? If things are more uncertain he will out of self-preservation motives keep guards around.
I don't like this rule tbh, it should be removed.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 5.3 Go ahead and lie all you want. This power disparity is perfect for creating natural conflict resulting the government either turning corrupt or having to find a more effective way of preventing rogue officers from infiltrating their forces. Yet more reasons to overthrow the government or have demonstrations or stop paying taxes (if that were a thing), forming underground rebellions, citizens actually teaming up with rebels to fight the establishment, etc.

But they don't. Again, serious RP community.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 5.5 In a normal world where kicking someone out of their job does not magically teleport them away, you could just detain corrupt government officials and arrest them like normal citizens. Never understood why detaining government officials is not allowed. Could also be used interestingly for SWAT overthrowing the (dictatorial) president as they want the position for themselves.

Because the gamemode doesn't allow it. That can be changed, but that's not a rule discussion.
(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: SWAT overthrowing the (dictatorial) president
Why dictatorial?
Anyone can do anything they want, nothing stops SWAT from just killing everyone who goes President.
Perhaps that's the point, to have an environment where might makes right, instead of a semi-functional city.

(08-24-2022, 08:40 AM)Arkten Wrote: 5.10 No one has to follow any law. Not even the government and even less so some affiliate group. See the previous points for reference.
"rules", not "laws".



Overall, I feel like this could work if it was an anarchist RP, or a hyper-serious HL2 RP.
But we're not that.

You raise some good points, but seem to completely miss the mark on others.

It's interesting, perhaps we could talk more about this later?
Yours
Doctor Internet;

Developer, Systems Operator,
Data Protection Officer, Business Advisor,
Server Administrator, Community Moderator
#14
Proud to have one of my rules I campaigned for as a fantastic rule. Proud of my rule 2.2
Regards,
Joe Joe
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#15
I don't think any amount of rule changes are gonna bring people back, nobody joins a server for its rule set.
I think time could be spent better focusing on content and fixing the slew of bugs and broken existing systems
#16
All I’m saying is that it was a better time when you could rag doll someone across the map with a breen desk
Regards,
Panda
NOT AN Administrator
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#17
(08-28-2022, 12:05 AM)Arkten Wrote:
(08-27-2022, 04:07 PM)frost Wrote: ikr fuck rules

Not like you ever played by them anyway Tounge

i did
always
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  • Arkten
#18
(08-29-2022, 04:53 PM)Joe Joe Wrote: Proud to have one of my rules I campaigned for as a fantastic rule. Proud of my rule 2.2

It is not the rule that is important.

It is how it is enforced on the server that matters.



Sometimes there are so many rules; that not breaking one is quite the hazzle.
That spoils a lot of fun!
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#19
(09-12-2022, 05:51 PM)frost Wrote:
(08-28-2022, 12:05 AM)Arkten Wrote:
(08-27-2022, 04:07 PM)frost Wrote: ikr fuck rules

Not like you ever played by them anyway :P

i did
always

Must have been while I was banned or something....
#20
(08-29-2022, 04:53 PM)Joe Joe Wrote: Proud to have one of my rules I campaigned for as a fantastic rule. Proud of my rule 2.2

It is quite exceptional in its design from what I am familiar with. Well done.


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